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Author Topic:   Why this story and not another?
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 16 of 52 (48454)
08-03-2003 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by THEONE
08-03-2003 2:46 AM


TheOne responds to me:

quote:
quote:
What's the difference between a theist and an atheist?
A theist claims that of the 1,000 religions out there, 999 of them are wrong.
An atheist doesn't make an exception for that last one.

Never did you hear me say, nor will I ever say that any of the religions are wrong.


That's just because you're being polite.

quote:
I just state which one I believe in.

What's the point in believing in one if you aren't making a statement about the others? After all, many of those religions are mutually exclusive and thus, you cannot be a believer in them all. By necessity, you must conclude that at least one is wrong.

That you don't directly call it such doesn't mean you aren't supporting that claim.

quote:
After all God is not completely revealed, yet.

Ah, but some religions say that god is completely revealed.

So which is it? Is god completely revealed or not? It seems as if you're saying that those who claim that god is completely revealed are wrong. No, you didn't use the word wrong, but you made an assertion. There are other religions that make the opposite assertion. You can't both be correct. Therefore, one of you is wrong. And if you think you are right, then that necessarily means that you think the other is wrong.

quote:
Why believe?

That's my question to you.

And it isn't just a question about theism/atheism. It's a question about your particular brand.

------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by THEONE, posted 08-03-2003 2:46 AM THEONE has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by THEONE, posted 08-03-2003 6:21 PM Rrhain has not yet responded

    
DC85
Member (Idle past 374 days)
Posts: 875
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 17 of 52 (48458)
08-03-2003 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by THEONE
08-03-2003 6:09 AM


alright theone lets make a simple question out of this(as simple as I can make it) why are you Jewish and not Hindu?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by THEONE, posted 08-03-2003 6:09 AM THEONE has not yet responded

    
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 807 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 18 of 52 (48460)
08-03-2003 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by THEONE
08-03-2003 6:09 AM


TheOne writes:

"And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters" (Beresheet 1:6)


Had you read the next verse, you might have understood the question.
quote:
"And God made the firmament and separated the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament." (verse 7)

Three ... forces permeate all existence. ... Right, Left and Central Columns.

What does this have to do with upper and lower waters?

The Firmament whose resistance produces illumination.

So, the Firmament reflects light. This was the high point of your argument - You actually mentioned the word.

Gehenom is commonly refered to as Hell.

Nice try at redirection.

How is that for a "Little Box"?

Your "argument" may sound powerful as it echoes within that confined space, but it sounds like gibberish out here.

... you still in your little box trying to prove that Shabbat was used for military training ...?

Now that you mention it - Are you going to address the evidences I listed for your consideration? The box I was in did not permit such questions. Does yours?

Since you apparently do not want to discuss the firmament's function in separating the waters, I offer the following commentary gleaned from Jewish literature (to which you may, perhaps, have access).

quote:
Gen. Rab. 17. “God allotted a separate place to each body of Waters. Yet at the horizon they are parted by no more than the breadth of three narrow fingers.” {Genesis Rabba, a midrash on the Book of Genesis, compiled in the fifth century in Palestine. Quoted by page of the critical edition of J. Theodor and Ch. Albeck, Berlin, 1912-27, 2 vols.} HEBREW MYTH, Graves and Patai, pg. 41

Can you hear me now?

db

------------------
Doesn't anyone graduate Sunday School?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by THEONE, posted 08-03-2003 6:09 AM THEONE has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by THEONE, posted 08-03-2003 5:30 PM doctrbill has responded
 Message 20 by THEONE, posted 08-03-2003 6:05 PM doctrbill has responded

  
THEONE 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 19 of 52 (48477)
08-03-2003 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by doctrbill
08-03-2003 1:23 PM


alright theone lets make a simple question out of this(as simple as I can make it) why are you Jewish and not Hindu?

Simple answer: Hindus believe in multiple Gods. I hold a view of Judaism which says there is only one source for everithing in our entire universe.

Kind of like that joke:
A group of scientists comes up to God and says: "God, we have finaly figured out how easy it is to make a man."
God replies "Go ahead, show me"
"Well, you just take a handfull of sand and ....."
God interupts them right there and says, "Hey, go get your own sand!"

but this joke is more specific to religion:

A Jewish man moves into a Catholic neighbourhood. Every Friday The Catholics are driven crazy because, while they're morosely eating fish, the Jew is outside barbecuing steaks. So the Catholics work on the Jew to convert him to Catholicism.
Finally, after many threats and much pleading, the Catholics succeed. They take the Jew to a priest who sprinkles holy water on the Jew and says, "Born a Jew, Raised a Jew, Now a Catholic."
The Catholics are ecstatic. No more delicious, but maddening smells every Friday evening. But the next Friday evening, the scent of barbecue wafts through the neighbourhood.
The Catholics all rush to the Jew's house to remind him of his new diet. They see him standing over the cooking steak.
He is sprinkling water on the meat and saying, "Born a cow, Raised a cow, Now a fish."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by doctrbill, posted 08-03-2003 1:23 PM doctrbill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by doctrbill, posted 08-03-2003 6:38 PM THEONE has not yet responded
 Message 25 by DC85, posted 08-03-2003 8:55 PM THEONE has responded
 Message 30 by Rrhain, posted 08-04-2003 3:53 AM THEONE has not yet responded

  
THEONE 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 20 of 52 (48479)
08-03-2003 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by doctrbill
08-03-2003 1:23 PM


Can you hear me now?

Unfortunately.

What does it have to do with upper and lower waters? It is a metaphor for upper and lower spiritual worlds. Deriving from different Sfirots (some of them represented by days in Genesis). That what I meant by saying your are not ready to understand. Under the litteral text there are encoded secrets on how spiritual worlds shape and manifest themself in physical sense. The thing you quoted deal with completely differen level of interpretation. According to my tradition, Torah has 48 dimensions (or levels of interpretation). It takes a life time of study.

This reminds me of a story. One of our greatest spiritual giants was asked by his student, "Can you teach me all the sublime secrets and magnificent mysteries of the cosmos in the short time that it takes to remain balanced on one leg?" The eminent master upon hearing his eager student's request, considered the question very carefully. Then he said,"Love thy neighbor as thyself. All the rest is mere commentary. Now go and learn."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by doctrbill, posted 08-03-2003 1:23 PM doctrbill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by doctrbill, posted 08-03-2003 6:56 PM THEONE has responded

  
THEONE 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 21 of 52 (48483)
08-03-2003 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Rrhain
08-03-2003 10:35 AM


Rrhain you write:

That's just because you're being polite.
What's the point in believing in one if you aren't making a statement about the others

The point is... I belive in one thing because it makes sense to me. But at the same time I don't claim to hold "absolute truth". I do belive in right and wrong, I just don't think of myself as the Judge.

I some sense you are right though. I do belive that other religions are wrong for me.

Ah, but some religions say that god is completely revealed.

So which is it? Is god completely revealed or not? It seems as if you're saying that those who claim that god is completely revealed are wrong.

To me he is not completely revealed yet. So for me it is wrong. But who am I to say what is right to the person on the other side of this monitor? Maybe that person had an enlightment that only awaits me in 20 years?

[This message has been edited by TheOne, 08-03-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Rrhain, posted 08-03-2003 10:35 AM Rrhain has not yet responded

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 807 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 22 of 52 (48485)
08-03-2003 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by THEONE
08-03-2003 5:30 PM


Very entertaining, but, for whom was this message intended. Not me I think.

------------------
Doesn't anyone graduate Sunday School?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by THEONE, posted 08-03-2003 5:30 PM THEONE has not yet responded

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 807 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 23 of 52 (48486)
08-03-2003 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by THEONE
08-03-2003 6:05 PM


TheOne writes:

That what I meant by saying your are not ready to understand.


I hear BS Ok, but you're right, I'm not even going to try understanding it.

Under the litteral text there are encoded secrets on how spiritual worlds shape and manifest themself in physical sense.

I've read some of those laughable "secrets," none of which contributed one iota to modern physics.

The thing you quoted deal with completely differen level of interpretation.

Yeah. Physical reality type interpretation.

according to my tradition,...

Enjoy your tradition. I'll enjoy my science.

... Torah has 48 dimensions (or levels of interpretation). It takes a life time of study.

Hope you won't be too busy to study reality.

Cute stories BTW.

db

------------------
Doesn't anyone graduate Sunday School?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by THEONE, posted 08-03-2003 6:05 PM THEONE has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by THEONE, posted 08-04-2003 12:07 AM doctrbill has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 212 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 24 of 52 (48495)
08-03-2003 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by nator
08-03-2003 10:01 AM


What about my point, The One?

Message #15, please.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by nator, posted 08-03-2003 10:01 AM nator has not yet responded

    
DC85
Member (Idle past 374 days)
Posts: 875
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 25 of 52 (48499)
08-03-2003 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by THEONE
08-03-2003 5:30 PM


quote:
Simple answer: Hindus believe in multiple Gods. I hold a view of Judaism which says there is only one source for everything in our entire universe.

you don't get it do you? I mean why is being Jewish the right thing for you to be? why are you not christen or any other religion? why are you what you are? why do you believe this? thats what I mean and the meaning of the entire topic. why is this one right when they all have the same support. 0 facts. I mean I can say the Universe was created by a child in another Universe as a science Project and its all in a Pickle jar! this is just as supported as your belief. so why do you believe what you believe? I am not saying you don't have the right to it. I am just asking why?

science is simple we have the facts. sure there are blanks. but we have facts


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by THEONE, posted 08-03-2003 5:30 PM THEONE has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by THEONE, posted 08-04-2003 6:30 AM DC85 has responded

    
THEONE 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 26 of 52 (48513)
08-03-2003 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by nator
08-03-2003 10:01 AM


schrafinator, here's a respond to your post #15

So, this is what the Middle Eastern nomadic desert tribesman who wrote about the firmament meant?

As you might of noticed by now, I believe in God. I also belive that Torah is the word of God, transmited through Moses. It is not necessary for someone to mean anything while writing down what is being transmited.

Now, honestly, isn't it much more likely that the nomadic desert tribesman looked up into the sky and thought that it was a giant dome that had little twinkling lights fixed in it?

More than likely. That is why they were given Torah. Which says what it really is. Right after they accuired Torah, they began studying it. Even up to this day.

Or, are you doing what is called post hoc reasoning to shoehorn our current knowledge into what the Bible says?

What I quoted you is book called Zohar, it was written way before let's say Newton's time. Which means, it's written even before the knowelege of electricity (and no I'm not saying Newton discovered electricity). I added things about protons and electrons to help explain a concept, that's it. Zohar only states Right (pure) Left(impure) and Central (neither). Pure we can compare to something that is positive, impure to something that is negative. And thanks to physics now we can go even deeper and ad protons, electrons and so on, to explain things better.

That's why Judaism never had any problems with science (maybe with exception of some fanatics). Whatever is in Torah can only be explained better with science. Unfortunately it doesn't work the other way too well. But after all, Torah was never designed as a Chemistry or Quantum Physics "suplementary study". However, every single science is a "suplementary" or "additional" study for Torah. That's how I see it.

[This message has been edited by TheOne, 08-03-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by nator, posted 08-03-2003 10:01 AM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
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THEONE 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 27 of 52 (48515)
08-04-2003 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by doctrbill
08-03-2003 6:56 PM


I've read some of those laughable "secrets," none of which contributed one iota to modern physics.

Isaac Newton thought on a contrary. He studied Kabbalah, and in his theological writings he attributed some of his scientific discoveries to concepts he found in Kabbalah. You don't have to believe me, just look up his copy of Kabbalah which is still on records in Trinity College in Cambridge, UK. Also, you might enjoy his theological writings, surprisingly there are more of them then his scientific work. Go figure...

I do have to agree on one thing. 95% of all kabbalistic writings which are out there in main stream bookstores are junk! It is hard to come-by a good source.

Enjoy your tradition. I'll enjoy my science.

Sounds good. Enjoy your science, I'll enjoy my tradition along with your science.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by doctrbill, posted 08-03-2003 6:56 PM doctrbill has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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DC85
Member (Idle past 374 days)
Posts: 875
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 28 of 52 (48517)
08-04-2003 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by THEONE
08-04-2003 12:07 AM


why was I ignored? I am the one on topic and you ignored what I asked. is it to hard to answer or something? I would realy like to know please ANswer me
This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by THEONE, posted 08-04-2003 12:07 AM THEONE has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 807 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 29 of 52 (48519)
08-04-2003 1:18 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by DC85
08-04-2003 12:26 AM


See message 19. The reason why you didn't see the reply is because TheOne did the same thing you did: - Replied to the wrong argument; Clicked on the wrong button.

Please think before you click.

db

------------------
Doesn't anyone graduate Sunday School?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by DC85, posted 08-04-2003 12:26 AM DC85 has not yet responded

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 30 of 52 (48523)
08-04-2003 3:53 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by THEONE
08-03-2003 5:30 PM


TheOne responds to DC85:

quote:
quote:
alright theone lets make a simple question out of this(as simple as I can make it) why are you Jewish and not Hindu?

Simple answer: Hindus believe in multiple Gods.


So you're saying Hinduism is wrong.

Weren't you just before saying that you weren't saying other religions were wrong?

Never did you hear me say, nor will I ever say that any of the religions are wrong.

So which is it? Are there multiple gods like the Hindus claim or only one god like you claim? You can't both be right.

------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by THEONE, posted 08-03-2003 5:30 PM THEONE has not yet responded

    
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