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Author Topic:   Can science refute the "god hypothesis" beyond all reasonable doubt?
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5530 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 121 of 310 (486151)
10-16-2008 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by New Cat's Eye
10-16-2008 12:20 PM


Re: Science and Atheism
Catholic Scientist writes:
You gotta be careful with that one though.
If I hand you an envelope and tell you that there's a dollar in it, how would you determine that there isn't one in there? It would be from the absense of evidence that there is a dollar in there (i.e. its empty). So that absense of evidence would be evidence that the dollar is not in the envelope.
However, this does not prove that there is no dollar. You could have simply not seen it.
What do you mean - that you could see it and that i wouldn't? Or that there is no objective reality? I don't think i follow your thoughts correctly.
CS writes:
They could....
You can have an open mind and remain unconvinced of god's existence.
That speaks more of agnosticism than of atheism.
CS writes:
Unless you're talking about people who hold a positive belief that god does not exist...
But nobody really holds that.
I think you'll be surprised what a great number of atheists there are who hold a positive view that god does not exist. They are more than certain, beyond a shadow of a doubt that there are no gods.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind"
"I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - This is a somewhat new kind of religion"
-Albert Einstein

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-16-2008 12:20 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-16-2008 12:32 PM Agobot has replied
 Message 128 by onifre, posted 10-16-2008 1:31 PM Agobot has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 122 of 310 (486152)
10-16-2008 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Agobot
10-16-2008 12:28 PM


Re: Science and Atheism
Catholic Scientist writes:
You gotta be careful with that one though.
If I hand you an envelope and tell you that there's a dollar in it, how would you determine that there isn't one in there? It would be from the absense of evidence that there is a dollar in there (i.e. its empty). So that absense of evidence would be evidence that the dollar is not in the envelope.
However, this does not prove that there is no dollar. You could have simply not seen it.
What do you mean - that you could see it and that i wouldn't? Or that there is no objective reality? I don't think i follow your thoughts correctly.
I'm definately not saying that there is no objective reality.
I meant that there could be situations where there is a dollar in the envelope but you just didn't see it. For example, if the envelope was very large, perhaps you didn't look everywhere in side it. Or one side of the dollar could have been painted white and you overlooked it because the envelope is also white. Something like that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Agobot, posted 10-16-2008 12:28 PM Agobot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Agobot, posted 10-16-2008 12:38 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5530 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 123 of 310 (486153)
10-16-2008 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by New Cat's Eye
10-16-2008 12:32 PM


Re: Science and Atheism
CS writes:
I meant that there could be situations where there is a dollar in the envelope but you just didn't see it. For example, if the envelope was very large, perhaps you didn't look everywhere in side it. Or one side of the dollar could have been painted white and you overlooked it because the envelope is also white. Something like that.
So what are you saying - that i can see/feel your spiritual experience or a similar experience if i followed your path? I'd be interested to try that but how?

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind"
"I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - This is a somewhat new kind of religion"
-Albert Einstein

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-16-2008 12:32 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-16-2008 12:50 PM Agobot has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 124 of 310 (486154)
10-16-2008 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Agobot
10-16-2008 12:38 PM


Re: Science and Atheism
So what are you saying - that i can see/feel your spiritual experience or a similar experience if i followed your path?
I suppose you could. If you were standing next to me when I saw a ghost, I think that you would have seen it too. If you had, then that lends credibility to there actaully being a ghost there, if you could not, then maybe I was imagining it.
I'd be interested to try that but how?
Have you ever tripped?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Agobot, posted 10-16-2008 12:38 PM Agobot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Agobot, posted 10-16-2008 12:59 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied
 Message 126 by onifre, posted 10-16-2008 1:16 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5530 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 125 of 310 (486155)
10-16-2008 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by New Cat's Eye
10-16-2008 12:50 PM


Re: Science and Atheism
CS writes:
Have you ever tripped?
I tried weed when i was 22 but it didn't produce results. I'll try LSD one day but it will be just to see what my mind is capable of producing in terms of other realities.

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind"
"I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - This is a somewhat new kind of religion"
-Albert Einstein

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-16-2008 12:50 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by onifre, posted 10-16-2008 1:33 PM Agobot has not replied
 Message 134 by onifre, posted 10-16-2008 4:23 PM Agobot has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 126 of 310 (486156)
10-16-2008 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by New Cat's Eye
10-16-2008 12:50 PM


Re: Science and Atheism
CS writes:
I suppose you could. If you were standing next to me when I saw a ghost, I think that you would have seen it too.
Yeah if we were all on shrooms.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-16-2008 12:50 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-16-2008 1:56 PM onifre has not replied

  
dogrelata
Member (Idle past 5312 days)
Posts: 201
From: Scotland
Joined: 08-04-2006


Message 127 of 310 (486158)
10-16-2008 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Straggler
10-15-2008 1:54 PM


Re: Science and Atheism
Straggler writes:
IF:
Two people arrive at two completely opposite mutually exclusive conclusions via subjective, non-empirical faith based evidence alone
AND:
Each is equally convinced of the irrefutable certainty of his own faith based conclusion
THEN:
How can we tell which one has reached a reliable conclusion and which one has not?
If we’re lucky, they hold an election. If not, they have a war, or a genocide or a burning of books.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Straggler, posted 10-15-2008 1:54 PM Straggler has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 128 of 310 (486159)
10-16-2008 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Agobot
10-16-2008 12:28 PM


Re: Science and Atheism
I think you'll be surprised what a great number of atheists there are who hold a positive view that god does not exist.
As an atheist I can accept spiritual experiences. I can accept the fact that humans can subjectively experience things that question the very nature of reality, these type of experiences do not interfere with an atheistic belief.
However, I am an (a)theist, which is to say atheistic towards theological concepts of gods and godesses. I disbelieve in all the gods and godesses from Zues to Allah. Do not confuse atheism. It is just the rejection of the gods depicted in scriptures and/or mythological texts. As time goes on, and more and more folks take to the belief that Catholic Sci has adopted (science/spiritual) , then atheism will get harder and harder to define. If at some point a unanimous decision is made by all of society that God is simply the fundamental forces of the universe, then there will probably be no more atheists. At least I would not be one because God will no longer be the God of the scriptures but a more naturalistic God, one that can be empirically defined, IMO.

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Agobot, posted 10-16-2008 12:28 PM Agobot has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 129 of 310 (486160)
10-16-2008 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Agobot
10-16-2008 12:59 PM


Re: Science and Atheism
I'll try LSD one day but it will be just to see what my mind is capable of producing in terms of other realities.
Mushrooms, not LSD...keep it natural.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Agobot, posted 10-16-2008 12:59 PM Agobot has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-16-2008 1:55 PM onifre has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 130 of 310 (486162)
10-16-2008 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by onifre
10-16-2008 1:33 PM


Re: Science and Atheism
Mushrooms, not LSD...keep it natural.
LSD isn't supernatural

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by onifre, posted 10-16-2008 1:33 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by onifre, posted 10-16-2008 3:02 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 131 of 310 (486163)
10-16-2008 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by onifre
10-16-2008 1:16 PM


Re: Science and Atheism
CS writes:
I suppose you could. If you were standing next to me when I saw a ghost, I think that you would have seen it too.
Yeah if we were all on shrooms.
I was sober.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by onifre, posted 10-16-2008 1:16 PM onifre has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 132 of 310 (486165)
10-16-2008 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by New Cat's Eye
10-16-2008 1:55 PM


Re: Science and Atheism
LSD isn't supernatural
It's synthetic though, not fresh off a turd as God intended.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-16-2008 1:55 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-16-2008 3:43 PM onifre has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 133 of 310 (486168)
10-16-2008 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by onifre
10-16-2008 3:02 PM


Re: Science and Atheism
LSD isn't supernatural
It's synthetic though, not fresh off a turd as God intended.
Heaven's in a cow's butt!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by onifre, posted 10-16-2008 3:02 PM onifre has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 134 of 310 (486170)
10-16-2008 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Agobot
10-16-2008 12:59 PM


Re: Science and Atheism
Abogot writes:
just to see what my mind is capable of producing in terms of other realities.
Think you might enjoy this video, you too CS.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v905fhCqq2Y
Perhaps the road to viewing our reality in a differnt way IS in psychedelic drugs like DMT.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Agobot, posted 10-16-2008 12:59 PM Agobot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Agobot, posted 10-16-2008 8:18 PM onifre has not replied

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5530 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 135 of 310 (486210)
10-16-2008 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by onifre
10-16-2008 4:23 PM


Re: Science and Atheism
onifre writes:
Think you might enjoy this video, you too CS.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v905fhCqq2Y
Perhaps the road to viewing our reality in a differnt way IS in psychedelic drugs like DMT.
Cool, just spoke to a friend on yahoo messanger, it seems DMT is called in Bulgarian "Ayahusca". However i was warned against trying it, someone had tried it and said it could mess up your life forever.
He said he saw with his own eyes how his cat turned to a dog as the weed started to take effect. I asked how realistic was the visual from 1 to 10, 10 being our reality, he said 10. Then he said snakes started to fall down from the ceiling and he kept his eyes open during the whole time, he said he couldn't distinguish trip from reality. He said the nightmares haunted him for close to a year after the bad trip, he said absolutely don't do it, you'll need a psychitrist. It's still a painful experience for him to come back to his memories.
DMT seems to be a religious drug, here is what wikipedia says:
"McKenna writes of his DMT experiences with a decidedly less skeptical slant, often presuming that the drug's "intoxication" is indicative of realms of consciousness equally as valid as waking-life if not more so. In his writings and speeches, he recounts encounters with entities he sometimes describes as "Self-Transforming Machine Elves" among equally colorful phrases. McKenna believed DMT to be a tool that could be used to enhance communication and allow for communication with other-worldly entities. Other users report visitation from external intelligences attempting to impart information. These Machine Elf experiences are said to be shared by many DMT users. From a researcher's perspective, perhaps best known is Rick Strassman's DMT: The Spirit Molecule."
Has anyone from the users tried DMT before? There does seem to be more to the human mind than what is generally accepted.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind"
"I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - This is a somewhat new kind of religion"
-Albert Einstein

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by onifre, posted 10-16-2008 4:23 PM onifre has not replied

  
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