The "Axioms" Of Nature

HuntardWhich would fall into the category of unwilling, but it was a nice try. Yu cant do it I tried over and over and over, reality wont allow it.D Bertot

Subbie writesYou are still not paying attention to old threads, if you were you would remember that I told you that if the enterprise could not recognize it or did not recieve it, this would clearly constitute UNABLE to make contact with them, even if they had tried. They were still unable to contact them even if an attempt was made.You will work yourself into a frenzy trying to avoid reality.D Bertot

Yes, everyone familiar with the previous thread knows that your idea of logic is an irrational Spock-worship which happily embraces self-contradiction.Obviously if the aliens DID respond they were neither unable nor unwilling to do so. That you would equate an unheard response with a failure to respond simply demonstrates that you have no regard for REAL logic.

Rahain writes:These kinds of statements fly directly in the face of reality. Some observational processes will allow you to know that there are no other choices by simply applying the process of deductive reasoning to axiomatic truths. It doesnt always manifest itself in this fashion but at times you can know things for certain.In this instance reality applied to the existence of things against axiomatic principles will only allow two alterantives to the how the how or why of existence.D Bertot

PaulK writes:Were they ABLE or UNABLE to get a message through?D BertotEdited by Bertot, : No reason given.

No it wouldn't, I stated they were willing. That it's not a response we can rationalize does not mean it should not be considered. Again, they ARE willing to respond, but don't. You seem to know what reality will allow? Impressive, but excuse me if I don' t take your word for it. Please demonstrate that simply not responding is something reality will not allow. Furthermore, the others here pointed out some more options that are also possible. So, it seems that Spock's "axiom" wasn't one at all.

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I hunt for the truth

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Were they ABLE or UNABLE to get a message through?

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That is misdirection. Spock's assertion was that they were either unable or unwilling to respond. Since, in this scenario they did respond it refutes Spock by counter-example.(And there is insufficient information in the scenario to answer your question, thus even your rewording fails).

PaulK writes:Their INABILITY has nothing to do with Spocks perceptions, it has to do with whether or not the enterpise recieved the message, they did not. It therefore demonstrates that the aliens were UNABLE to for whatever reason to contact the enterprise.Spocks assertion as you call it was exacally correct. Willingness and attempts have nothing to do with the reality that they were UNABLE to get a message through for what ever reason.Try again.D Bertot

Huntard writes You do understand that "but dont" is a choice to not "willing" do or not do something, correct. In your scenerio they seem to be willing at first but then change thier mind, which would mean that they were then unwilling.D BertotEdited by Bertot, : No reason given.

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Their INABILITY has nothing to do with Spocks perceptions, it has to do with whether or not the enterpise recieved the message, they did not. It therefore demonstrates that the aliens were UNABLE to for whatever reason to contact the enterprise.

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More misdirection. The question is whether they were willing and able to respond. IN this scenario they were, and did.Moreover your response is logically faulty, too, in that a single failed attempt does not indicate a complete inability to accomplish a task.

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Spocks assertion as you call it was exacally correct. Willingness and attempts have nothing to do with the reality that they were UNABLE to get a message through for what ever reason.

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Spocks assertion, as cited by you in Message 7 is: This assertion is refuted by my counter-example. You cannot change that by pretending that he said something else.

Straggler writes:Which would mean that thier methods of communication and understnding are so different that it would make it in reality, UNABLE to get a message through, correct?Isnt it interesting that not one person can provide one other solution that does not fall within the two categories. Hmmmmm?D BertotD BertotEdited by Bertot, : No reason given.

Surely PaulK you are not so simplistic to assume that what is meant in a response, is that it would only involve an attempt. What Spock meant is that the response was not revieved, even if they had tried, because they were unable to get it through. Therefore they were incapable or unable regardless if they had tried. Now who is attempting "misdirection"? This would involve more of the situation that is not under consideration. At that precise moment, his statement was completly accurate. Actually it is you that is limiting Spocks meaning to form another conclusion which is not warrented, as I have demonstrated.Ive got to get some sleep, see you in the morning.D BertotEdited by Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.

only in your limited mind, Bertot only as YOU choose define them - can you really not see the utter subjectivity of this?Just for fun, here's another one - there is no 'they', so Spock's statement is ill-defined from the start.And just what is the actual axiom you are discssing, of which your Spock-scenario is but an example?Finally, is Spock's implicit 'or' inclusive or exclusive, as you don't specify and it is rather important...

To put a end to the Star Trek axiom may i propose the following logical option number three ..the aliens are both willing and able , and have so done ,and have taken over Spock , he is now telling lies to confuse the Captain ,so that, while he under alien mind control,he can take over the ship ....

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Surely PaulK you are not so simplistic to assume that what is meant in a response, is that it would only involve an attempt. What Spock meant is that the response was not revieved, even if they had tried, because they were unable to get it through. Therefore they were incapable or unable regardless if they had tried. Now who is attempting "misdirection"?

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As is blatantly obvious, you are the one attempting misdirection again. Quite obviously a response that is not received is still a response. For instance, a letter lost in the post was still written and sent, regardless of the failure of the post office to deliver.

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This would involve more of the situation that is not under consideration. At that precise moment, his statement was completly accurate.

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By which you mean that Spock was jumping to conclusions (which would be highly illogical). Spock cannot know of capabilities which the aliens have so far declined to employ.

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Actually it is you that is limiting Spocks meaning to form another conclusion which is not warrented, as I have demonstrated.

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You've only demonstrated that your claims rely on misrepresentation and dishonesty. If Spock is a paragon of logic his statmeents must be clear and precise, and therefore all your "he didn't mean what he said, he meant what Dawn Berottsays" arguments are futile. As well as demonstrating a complete contempt for the supposed authority-figure you base your arguments on.Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.