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Author Topic:   Expectations For The New Obama Democrat Government
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2697 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 136 of 341 (488420)
11-11-2008 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Straggler
11-10-2008 3:18 PM


Re: Important Question To Answer Here
Hi, Straggler.
Straggler writes:
In the unlikeley event that I lose I would become a social outcast.
Just post a sign beneath it that says, "I lost a bet," and you're sure to gain a lot of pity friends.

-Bluejay
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Straggler, posted 11-10-2008 3:18 PM Straggler has not replied

Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 137 of 341 (488421)
11-11-2008 3:52 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by Blue Jay
11-11-2008 1:20 AM


Jumping to conclusions
So, you are jumping to conclusions in order to find support for your belief that Barack Obama is the anti-Christ. You are more than welcome to this belief. Just don't tell me I'm ignorant or stupid or immature for disagreeing with you.
Well said that man.
Buzz is allowing the negative bias in his thinking prescribe the conclusion he reaches. As these conclusion cause him distress he selectively attends to the information he percieves as confirming said conclusions (and therfore causing him to worry and ruminate).
This kind of distorted thinking can be very entrenched but (just like smoking) is a habit you can quit if you have the courage.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Blue Jay, posted 11-11-2008 1:20 AM Blue Jay has not replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 138 of 341 (488424)
11-11-2008 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by Blue Jay
11-11-2008 1:20 AM


Bluejay writes:
quote:
you don't know what Obama and Ayers talked about
Considering that their only association was both being on the board of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge, a charitable group working on education, chances are they were talking about schools and where they could spend the Annenberg's money (the Annenbergs being big Reaganites). But even then, there wouldn't have been much discussion because Obama was the chair and Ayers was in a separate committee for dealing with disbursal. Since some of the groups receiving funds were projects created by Ayers, there was a separation in order to prevent conflicts of interest. They attended half a dozen board meetings.
They were also on the board of the Woods Fund of Chicago, an anti-poverty charity, so they probably discussed the poor and where they could spend the money.
And point of order: Ayers was never convicted of anything, though admittedly on a technicality: The evidence the feds had gathered was through the results of illegal wiretaps (which is why it is important to maintain such standards...you don't want your suspects getting away because you screwed up the case.) The two bombs he set off neither killed nor injured anybody as he warned the people in the buildings (the Capitol building and the Pentagon) to evacuate. I also point out that Ayers turned himself in.
Compare this to McCain's association to G. Gordon Liddy, convicted traitor. Among the plans Liddy developed as part of the Committee to Re-elect the President were the firebombing of the Brookings Institution, the kidnapping of antiwar protesters to Mexico, and the entrapment of Democratic officials by inviting them to a party and having secret pictures taken of them with prostitutes who would be there.
While none of these were carried out, Liddy was the one who masterminded the break-in at the Watergate hotel, for which he did not turn himself in nor did he apologize for. During the Branch Davidian raid in Waco, Liddy told people to shoot the members of the BATF, saying, "Go for a head shot; they're going to be wearing bulletproof vests. ... Kill the sons of bitches."
Liddy has been a direct financial supporter of McCain, hosting a fundraiser in his own home where people could get their picture taken with Liddy and McCain. McCain's statement regarding his relationship with Liddy? "I know Gordon Liddy. He paid his debt. He went to prison and paid his debt, as people do. I'm not in any way embarrassed to know Gordon Liddy."
So McCain likes to pal around with convicted traitors who to this day still advocate violence.
How does Obama's association with Ayers compare?
(Note: I am not stating anything about your opinions. Just pointing out that Buzsaw's reaction with regard to Obama and Ayers is hypocritical given his non-reaction to McCain and Liddy.)

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Blue Jay, posted 11-11-2008 1:20 AM Blue Jay has not replied

fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5520 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 139 of 341 (488431)
11-11-2008 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by ramoss
11-10-2008 9:09 PM


Re: Who Looses?
I just want to get this one thing straight. You are worried about 1) Obama being a Muslim and 2) the association he has with his Christian pastor?? and 3) His intentions to Israel because he chose a Jewish Chief of Staff??
Can anybody see the contradictions in Buzz's concerns?
Exactly! It's f***ing hilarious! That`s why I said it's hard for me to resist pulling his leg.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by ramoss, posted 11-10-2008 9:09 PM ramoss has not replied

Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5500 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 140 of 341 (488432)
11-11-2008 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by NosyNed
11-10-2008 10:39 PM


Re: Not qualified
NosyNed writes:
I am prepared to make moral judgments.
You may think you're "prepared," but I ask again: How are YOU qualified to make those moral judgments? I have made enough observations of your posts to conclude that you are as least as ignorant, fearful, and hateful as Buz is.
”FTF

I can see Lower Slobovia from my house.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by NosyNed, posted 11-10-2008 10:39 PM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by kuresu, posted 11-11-2008 11:13 AM Fosdick has replied
 Message 142 by Rahvin, posted 11-11-2008 11:34 AM Fosdick has replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 141 of 341 (488433)
11-11-2008 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by Fosdick
11-11-2008 10:57 AM


Re: Not qualified
Not to be a dick, but when you say that Nosyned is
as least as ignorant, fearful, and hateful as Buz is.
, isn't that a moral judgement you are making about him?
If so, what qualifies you to make that judgement?
Hypocrisy, much?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Fosdick, posted 11-11-2008 10:57 AM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Fosdick, posted 11-11-2008 11:40 AM kuresu has replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 142 of 341 (488434)
11-11-2008 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by Fosdick
11-11-2008 10:57 AM


Re: Not qualified
You may think you're "prepared," but I ask again: How are YOU qualified to make those moral judgments? I have made enough observations of your posts to conclude that you are as least as ignorant, fearful, and hateful as Buz is.
What qualifications are necessary to make moral judgments? I'm perfectly able to determine that racism, religious intolerance, homophobia and other flavors of bigotry are immoral, in the same way I can determine that murder, theft, rape, and other actions are immoral.
In the case of Nosy's judgment of Buz, Nosy is taking the clear image of Jesus as a preacher of love for all of mankind and comparing it to Buz's outright hatred (even if he won't admit as much) of brown people, gays, and non-Christians. Jesus specifically instructed everyone to love their neighbor, not hate them. It's a pretty cut-and-dry comparison, if you ask me.
You seem to take the opinion that only those who are morally perfect should be "qualified" to judge others in terms of morality. Unfortunately, we're all human beings, which means none of us are perfect. We all feel fear, we all feel anger, and we are all ignorant. The difference is how you react to those feelings. When you practice willful ignorance even when corrected, and when you apply your fear and hatred not to individuals who deserve it but to entire races and religions, you've crossed the line into bigotry.
Buz is fearful and hateful of all Muslims, and he lumps anyone with an Arabic-sounding name and brown skin into the Muslim category regardless of any facts of worship or statements of the individual in question. Buz is on record stating that interracial relationships are immoral (which is rather personally offensive to me, having a half-black ex-stepdaughter and an interracial girlfriend), for which he can provide no actual reason other than his own bigotry. Buz has made some very disgusting and factually incorrect statements regarding homosexuality, and things homosexuality is immoral, despite having nothing more than the Bible to support such an assertion.
Buz is a bigot. Plain and simple.
Feel free to say I'm unqualified. After all, I mock people who make irrational statements, and have an extreme distaste for all religion in general and Christianity in particular. But I don't judge people by their faith - most of the Christians I know (with the exception of those I tend to meet on evolution debate forums, like Buz) are very nice people who support equal treatment under the law for everyone and respect the rights of others to have faiths different from their own. I like those people. I just don't like bigots. Or irrational idiots. Like Buz (irrationality and bigotry do seem to go well together).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Fosdick, posted 11-11-2008 10:57 AM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Fosdick, posted 11-11-2008 12:02 PM Rahvin has not replied
 Message 148 by onifre, posted 11-11-2008 12:37 PM Rahvin has not replied

Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5500 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 143 of 341 (488436)
11-11-2008 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by kuresu
11-11-2008 11:13 AM


Re: Not qualified
kuresu writes:
If so, what qualifies you to make that judgement?
Hypocrisy, much?
Let me ask you this: Do you really think it was fair for NosyNed to say in Message 129:
quote:
You, Buz, are not in any way qualified to comment on what Jesus was like.
If you do then we are standing on different planets. How would you like it if someone said: "You, kuresu, are not in any way qualified to comment on what Jesus was like." That would be like saying: You, kuresu, are not in any way qualified to comment on what Bugs Bunny was like."
”FTF

I can see Lower Slobovia from my house.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by kuresu, posted 11-11-2008 11:13 AM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by kuresu, posted 11-11-2008 11:56 AM Fosdick has replied
 Message 159 by FliesOnly, posted 11-12-2008 6:57 AM Fosdick has replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 144 of 341 (488437)
11-11-2008 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by Fosdick
11-11-2008 11:40 AM


Re: Not qualified
I see you decided to evade my question.
You say Ned is not qualified to make moral judgements. You proceed to make a moral judgement about Ned.
What makes you qualified to make moral judgements about Ned (or anyone)?
Since you claim Ned is unqualified, you should have an acceptable answer for why you are qualified as you can apparently discern the required conditions for making justifiable moral judgements.
This also means you should have ready an objective measure of qualification for moral judging.
So, what makes you qualified to make moral judgements about Ned (or anyone)?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Fosdick, posted 11-11-2008 11:40 AM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Fosdick, posted 11-11-2008 12:06 PM kuresu has replied

Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5500 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 145 of 341 (488438)
11-11-2008 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Rahvin
11-11-2008 11:34 AM


Re: Not qualified
Rahvin writes:
What qualifications are necessary to make moral judgments? I'm perfectly able to determine that racism, religious intolerance, [removed for survival purposes] and other flavors of bigotry are immoral, in the same way I can determine that murder, theft, rape, and other actions are immoral...Buz is a bigot. Plain and simple.
I think you have massively misunderstood me. I don't think you understand the function of dialectics and the antithesis. You dabble only the surface of a deep philosophical lake. Well, snorkel on down here and learn something about how to examine all sides of an issue. There's much more to it than a bunch of stupid hysteria about bigotry.
After all, I mock people who make irrational statements, and have an extreme distaste for all religion in general and Christianity in particular.
I don't suppose you would understand that I do the very same thing.
”FTF

I can see Lower Slobovia from my house.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Rahvin, posted 11-11-2008 11:34 AM Rahvin has not replied

Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5500 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 146 of 341 (488439)
11-11-2008 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by kuresu
11-11-2008 11:56 AM


Re: Not qualified
kuresu writes:
So, what makes you qualified to make moral judgements about Ned (or anyone)?
Because I am amoral? Can you to imagine a judgment being made without invoking morality? I can.
”FTF

I can see Lower Slobovia from my house.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by kuresu, posted 11-11-2008 11:56 AM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by kuresu, posted 11-11-2008 12:22 PM Fosdick has replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 147 of 341 (488442)
11-11-2008 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Fosdick
11-11-2008 12:06 PM


Re: Not qualified
Because I am amoral?
That's an interesting position to take. This suggests that any moral judgement, then, is incapable of being rendered. How can you judge morality without morals?
If amorality is the requirement to pass judgement, then your judgement about Ned (that he is as least as ignorant, fearful, and hateful as Buz) is unjustifiable, as it is a moral judgement.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Fosdick, posted 11-11-2008 12:06 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Fosdick, posted 11-11-2008 1:19 PM kuresu has not replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(1)
Message 148 of 341 (488443)
11-11-2008 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Rahvin
11-11-2008 11:34 AM


Re: Not qualified
Hi Rahvin,
I agree with most of your post, however, on this specific statement...
Buz is a bigot. Plain and simple
...I think you may be making a bit of a character judgment having not looked at the whole of the situation.
Buz, all though he does express feelings of bigotry, is not a bigot IMO. Buz is a faithful follower of a system designed to instill fear and intolerance. Buz has fallen for the propaganda that the media, and the, in this case, republican party, have put forth. To signal out Buz as a bigot does not in anyway deal with the issue as a whole, which is, Why does Buz feel this way? Why would the majority of republicans feel this way about Obama? They don't make this stuff up in their heads, for the most part. They are told this by reliable, or what they consider to be, reliable sources.
We must question the system, and see Buz as a by product of a corrupt system of disinformation. Buzs' thoughts are manipulated by media sources. Unfortunatly he has been indoctrinated so deeply into the system that he fails to recognize the deceptive persuation measures that are used to guild his opinion about Obama, homo-sexuals, religious intolerance, etc, etc. This is why an educated conversation on these issues is sometimes impossible, because the issues are divided my party lines and party support supersedes a balanced discussion. The system of propaganda instills these feelings through fear and lies. Same thing that is done in religion.
So, I agree that Buz expresses feelings of bigotry but I don't feel that label describes him accurately. To me he is a by product of a system that indoctrinates people and pushes them towards bigoted opinions for the sake of party division and to maintain loyalty amongst its supporters.
So, again IMO, instead of dismissing Buz as a crazy bigot, we should look at what means were used to turn Buz into such a person. Was it out of his hands? Are we all guilded to our opinions by outside influences without properly investigating issues? Is this a method of indoctrination that we should ALL be above? Why is every moral issue divided by party lines? Are people even looking at the facts, or are they just siding with their party of choice an any issue?
I think we all do this from time to time.
IMO Buz is a casualty of bad guildance by people he was told were honest. See Buz, I do kinda feel for you.
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Rahvin, posted 11-11-2008 11:34 AM Rahvin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Buzsaw, posted 11-11-2008 6:36 PM onifre has replied

Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5500 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 149 of 341 (488446)
11-11-2008 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by kuresu
11-11-2008 12:22 PM


Re: Not qualified
kuresu writes:
That's an interesting position to take. This suggests that any moral judgement, then, is incapable of being rendered. How can you judge morality without morals?
All moral judgments are fueled by an rational belief in mutual exclusion. A philosopher avoids this mistake, per Will Durant: "The first lesson of philosophy is that we may all be mistaken."
”FTF

I can see Lower Slobovia from my house.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by kuresu, posted 11-11-2008 12:22 PM kuresu has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 150 of 341 (488463)
11-11-2008 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by onifre
11-11-2008 12:37 PM


Re: Not qualified
onifre writes:
So, again IMO, instead of dismissing Buz as a crazy bigot, we should look at what means were used to turn Buz into such a person. Was it out of his hands? Are we all gilded to our opinions by outside influences without properly investigating issues? Is this a method of indoctrination that we should ALL be above? Why is every moral issue divided by party lines? Are people even looking at the facts, or are they just siding with their party of choice an any issue?
I think we all do this from time to time.
IMO Buz is a casualty of bad guidance by people he was told were honest. See Buz, I do kinda feel for you.
Thanks, Onifre. Your points are well taken and do make sense in that the media which one ascribes to can have a bearing on one's ideology. It doesn't make sense though regarding bigotry. That my ideology happens to be the minority POV at this site does not make my ideology a bigot ideology or me a bigot. By that token, I could claim you people all as bigots simply because you don't see it as I do and you don't ascribe to much of the information which I get. I don't stoop that low, but honor your POV as above the level of bigotry.
However, the vast majority of mainstream media is leftist, democratic and liberal. Likely it is about all most of the members here ever watch, hear or access on line. I get much of what you people get but you people get precious little of what I get. I'm the one who gets both sides of the stories.
What folks here ascribe to bigotry in me comes not from unreliable sources for the most part.
Often when counterparts demean and engage in name calling, labeling and posting substanceless meanspirited messages their response is to a message substantiated by a link to source or UTUBE clip. Rather than addressing points made in the link, too often it's just personal attack and yada about my alleged bigotry, racism or other nonsense.
No matter how many times I cite valid reasons why I am not a practicing racist, for example, the lie is soon repeated that I'm racist just because the one I happen to be opposed to is half black.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by onifre, posted 11-11-2008 12:37 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by DrJones*, posted 11-11-2008 6:57 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 153 by bluescat48, posted 11-11-2008 7:16 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 155 by onifre, posted 11-11-2008 7:24 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 156 by Rahvin, posted 11-11-2008 7:58 PM Buzsaw has not replied

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