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Author Topic:   Diversification: Random Walk or Biological Determinism?
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 5 of 35 (488544)
11-12-2008 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Fosdick
11-12-2008 7:32 PM


random diversity
Hey hoot.
Steven, I'll take what you say to mean that you think there are meta-Darwinian forces at work to spread the biological news around.
Actually I think it is an emergent property of random events, arbitrary human categorizations, and the fact that any graph of distribution would show a skewed distribution, simply because you cannot have negative value.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Fosdick, posted 11-12-2008 7:32 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Fosdick, posted 11-12-2008 8:18 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied
 Message 7 by NosyNed, posted 11-12-2008 9:03 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 9 of 35 (488562)
11-12-2008 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by NosyNed
11-12-2008 9:03 PM


Re: Real effect
I don't think if is because of a skewed distribution
Things get more complex because of trial and error trying all avenues, but not being able to be simpler than a single cell. This skews the distribution towards increased complexity with time. With only limited resources you can either have a lot of different kinds of similar one-celled life OR you can have life diversified into multicellular forms.
or arbitrary categorizations.
How do you measure diversity? by arbitrary categories. If one "lumps" you get more diversity than if one "splits". In one sense all we have is one form of life: DNA life. All the rest of it is just packaging for how the DNA gets around and reproduces.
In other words, I think increasing diversity is the usual consequence of evolutionary processes.
So is stasis, with the difference between diversity and stasis being random situations or events that divide populations.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by NosyNed, posted 11-12-2008 9:03 PM NosyNed has not replied

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 Message 11 by StevenFire, posted 11-14-2008 6:23 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 12 of 35 (488647)
11-14-2008 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by StevenFire
11-14-2008 6:23 AM


Re: Real effect
Hey StevenFire,
I find hard to believe that even the reactions occurring in the primordial bath or the first cells are simple and maybe will never be elucidated. What has occurred is a diversification in structures, the complexity (e.g. in reactions) has remained, but the communication between structures has changed.
The chemical reactions in the first cells would likely be less complex (information) than outside due to being fewer in number (rather than all possible reactions).
The diversification of structures can be seen as more complex, with different proteins being constructed and assembled.
The (theoretical) combination of two prokaryotes into a single eukaryote could be seen as reducing the information of the two individuals. Same with chloroplasts in plant cells.
The combination of cells into an organism structure would be similar to the combination of atoms into a molecular structure (some show chirality too), and the degree of complexity would be related to how you could describe the structure.
Evolution doesn't increase complexity.
I'd say it changes complexity, either increased or decreased (the change in hereditary traits in populations from generation to generation).
This guy (Epulopiscium fishelsoni) has a pretty complex life cycle compared to other bacteria, the DNA is some 500x's the human genome, and it gives live birth to daughter cells formed inside it's cell, rather than budding.
Because it is (random) increase or decrease, it is a skewed distribution - you can only go so far into the decreased direction and still have a cell\organism.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by StevenFire, posted 11-14-2008 6:23 AM StevenFire has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by StevenFire, posted 11-15-2008 1:56 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 29 of 35 (488814)
11-17-2008 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Fosdick
11-17-2008 8:10 PM


back up the creek
What you are speaking of is only mechanical, like a river carving out a gorge. The river has no determinism to do that, and neither does gravity.
So is the gorge an emergent property of water flow and the random actions of erosion?
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
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