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Author Topic:   Expectations For The New Obama Democrat Government
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 166 of 341 (488823)
11-18-2008 7:13 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by Buzsaw
11-17-2008 10:40 PM


Re: Obama's First Act To Aid Global Terror
So, am I correct in understanding you WANT people to be tortured and kept in jail without a trial?
You do realize I could take your words and show them to other people and claim americans are evil because of all the stuff you are saying, don't you?
Oh, and just to be clear, I won't do that, because I know there are MANY americans who disagree with you.
Further:
Buzsaw writes:
This just lends support my contention that Obama will work to advance Islam, undercut the war against Jihad and as his militant and totalitarian Muslim supporters around the world consider to be the case.
Because closing an illegal detainment centre is just that, isn't it.
Closing the base at Gitmo serves no purpose but to consolidate the ruthless Communist regime on that Island and to advance global Jihad terror.
Lucky for us then the base stays open. Oh, and when was the last time the us actually did ANYTHING for the "poor people of Cuba" by acting through their base there?
It figures in with Obama's close associates in his past which is both socialist and Islam.
Which are , of course, figments of your imagination. And socialism ISN'T a bad thing, when will you get that fact? Neither is Islam, by the way.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Buzsaw, posted 11-17-2008 10:40 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by kuresu, posted 11-18-2008 8:28 AM Huntard has not replied
 Message 168 by Buzsaw, posted 11-18-2008 9:09 AM Huntard has replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 167 of 341 (488825)
11-18-2008 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by Huntard
11-18-2008 7:13 AM


Re: Obama's First Act To Aid Global Terror
well, there's anothing thing we should mention.
Obama is asking us to help with the california wildfires. On his website, change.gov, he directs willing volunteers to californiavolunteers.org.
Imagine that. He is saying in effect, do not ask what your government can do for you, but what you can do to help others in need. Paraphrasing JFK's line, of course.
What has hero Bush asked of us?
"Now people here in this part of the world are wondering, is there a number they can call to get help? And here's the number: 1-800-621-FEMA. You want to find out whether or not you qualify for help, federal help, just call 1-800-621-FEMA or go to the website FEMA.gov"
Briefing Room - The White House
He does thank the volunteers, but where's the call to arms? All I see is "we'll pray for you, FEMA will {screw you over}, and Ah-nuld is a great leader"
Yeah, Obama's going to destroy this country because he's asking us to help one another.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Huntard, posted 11-18-2008 7:13 AM Huntard has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 168 of 341 (488826)
11-18-2008 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by Huntard
11-18-2008 7:13 AM


Re: Obama's First Act To Aid Global Terror
Huntard writes:
So, am I correct in understanding you WANT people to be tortured and kept in jail without a trial?
If you consider water boarding, interrogation of terrorist Jihadists by a woman, non-life threatening deprivation of meals on occasions of interrogation and lowering cell temperatures to non-life threatening degrees for the purpose of obtaining intelligence info so as to protect the US from folks like these who's goal is to destroy America and other civilizations by terror as torture, yes I Do WAMT these people to be tortured and kept in jail without trial. That's why these folks are out of our nation; so we won't have to provide them with clever and expensive lawyers who know how to get them released into our population.
Many, if not most of these people left at Gitmo are too dangerous to even release back into their own nations. Furthermore their nations don't want them back.
Hunter and friends here, what do you advocate as an alternative to Gitmo for these folks who, like the Islamics who flew innocent citizens of America into the world's two tallest buildings full of innocent Americans for the sole purpose of killing as many of us Americans as possible? Hmmm??
Hunter writes:
You do realize I could take your words and show them to other people and claim americans are evil because of all the stuff you are saying, don't you?
Oh, like show them to the Tsunami victims of Indonesia, the earthquake victims, famine millions of Africa, the oppressed women of pre-invasion Afghanistan under ruthless Tali-ban Shari-ah law, etc, etc who have been rescued by the benevolence of evil Americans?
Hunter writes:
Oh, and just to be clear, I won't do that, because I know there are MANY americans who disagree with you.
I'm sure there are, like Bill Ayers, Jeremiah Wright, the Nation of Islam black supremacists, and folks like you who just don't get what evil is.
Hunter writes:
Because closing an illegal detainment centre is just that, isn't it.
Perhaps you would like to open a new topic on Gitmo and itemize precisely what is illegal about it and why it has been allowed to exist for the purpose of protecting you and me all of these terror-free years during the Bush Admin since 9/11.
Hunter writes:
Lucky for us then the base stays open. Oh, and when was the last time the us actually did ANYTHING for the "poor people of Cuba" by acting through their base there?
Perhaps you can apprise us all as to how Gitmo has hurt the "poor people" of Cuba who their ruthless government have oppressed and who are denied relief from America because their government forbids it.
Perhaps also you can tell us all what the host of Cubans who have fled to America to enjoy the good life here due to policies like Gitmo which keeps them safe and keeps Cuba's Communist ruthless totalitarianism at bay from expansion into the US where these Cubans now live in relative prosperity, think of Gitmo.
Hunter writes:
Which are , of course, figments of your imagination. And socialism ISN'T a bad thing, when will you get that fact? Neither is Islam, by the way.
So the Soviet Socialist Republic of the last century who murdered millions of their own citizens and the Islamic Jihadist doctrine advocated exclusively by Mohammed's Islam religion are good things? Is that what you want to replace American capitalism and government by representation of the republic/people?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Huntard, posted 11-18-2008 7:13 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by cavediver, posted 11-18-2008 9:24 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 170 by Huntard, posted 11-18-2008 10:35 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 171 by Jazzns, posted 11-18-2008 11:04 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 177 by fallacycop, posted 11-18-2008 12:37 PM Buzsaw has not replied

cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 169 of 341 (488828)
11-18-2008 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Buzsaw
11-18-2008 9:09 AM


Re: Obama's First Act To Aid Global Terror
Hunter writes:
And socialism ISN'T a bad thing, when will you get that fact? Neither is Islam, by the way.
Buz writes:
So the Soviet Socialist Republic of the last century who murdered millions of their own citizens and the Islamic Jihadist doctrine advocated exclusively by Mohammed's Islam religion are good things?
Good to see that as long as Buz is around, Idiot America is alive and kicking

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Buzsaw, posted 11-18-2008 9:09 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-20-2008 9:04 AM cavediver has replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 170 of 341 (488831)
11-18-2008 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Buzsaw
11-18-2008 9:09 AM


Re: Obama's First Act To Aid Global Terror
Buzsaw writes:
If you consider water boarding, interrogation of terrorist Jihadists by a woman, non-life threatening deprivation of meals on occasions of interrogation and lowering cell temperatures to non-life threatening degrees
Let's see.
Waterboarding. Yes
Interrogation by a woman. No
Non-life threatening deprivation of meals. Depends how far they go with this, so yes or no.
Lowering cell temperatures to non-life threatening degrees. Again, depends how far they go, so either yes or no.
for the purpose of obtaining intelligence info so as to protect the US from folks like these who's goal is to destroy America and other civilizations by terror
There is evidence they intended to do this? Please provide it.
yes I Do WAMT these people to be tortured and kept in jail without trial.
What if I lable you a terrorist Buz, and lock you up without trial and do those things to you because I CLAIM you are a danger, would you still agree? I have no problem with some of these things as long as there is evidence for any of the accusations, as long as I don't see that evidence however, I will protest the treatment of human beings in this way.
That's why these folks are out of our nation; so we won't have to provide them with clever and expensive lawyers who know how to get them released into our population.
So, you're willingly undermining justice, if a normal person does this they get jail time, yet it's ok as long as the government does it? Scary thought there.
Many, if not most of these people left at Gitmo are too dangerous to even release back into their own nations. Furthermore their nations don't want them back.
So you say, do you have any evidence to back that up?
Hunter and friends here, what do you advocate as an alternative to Gitmo for these folks who, like the Islamics who flew innocent citizens of America into the world's two tallest buildings full of innocent Americans for the sole purpose of killing as many of us Americans as possible?
If there is indeed evidence they intend to do this, I'd say it's not that hard to put them in jail through the legitimate means.
Oh, like show them to the Tsunami victims of Indonesia, the earthquake victims, famine millions of Africa, the oppressed women of pre-invasion Afghanistan under ruthless Tali-ban Shari-ah law, etc, etc who have been rescued by the benevolence of evil Americans?
No, I'd show them to the rebels in Iraq, and to Al-qaeda supporters, I think they'll agree with me. My point was to point out anyone can take words and make them mean whatever they want. We need supporting evidence to shape our oppinions. And yes, America has also done a lot of good things for the world.
I'm sure there are, like Bill Ayers, Jeremiah Wright, the Nation of Islam black supremacists, and folks like you who just don't get what evil is.
Actually, I consider those people to not be allright either, but to call them evil is a bit far fetched. Please don't throw me in with that crowd, as my viepoints are quite different from theirs.
Perhaps you would like to open a new topic on Gitmo and itemize precisely what is illegal about it
Since people are being detained there without any evidence for the reasons why, I'd say that's pretty damn illegal.
and why it has been allowed to exist for the purpose of protecting you and me all of these terror-free years during the Bush Admin since 9/11.
So, all those terror free clinton years without Gitmo don't count? As to why it has been allowed to exist, that's because of people like you Buz.
Perhaps you can apprise us all as to how Gitmo has hurt the "poor people" of Cuba who their ruthless government have oppressed and who are denied relief from America because their government forbids it.
I never said it hurt them, I said it doesn't matter whether or not it is there to the people on Cuba. You don't do ANYTHING to help them from that base. You also don't do anything to hurt them. Thus, it doesn't matter if it is there or not to the people of Cuba.
Perhaps also you can tell us all what the host of Cubans who have fled to America to enjoy the good life here due to policies like Gitmo which keeps them safe and keeps Cuba's Communist ruthless totalitarianism at bay from expansion into the US where these Cubans now live in relative prosperity, think of Gitmo.
You seriously believe the ONLY reason communism hasn't spread from Cuba to the USA is GITMO....wow....just wow...
And I think they'd be quite indifferent to it, or even opposed to what happens there, as most are Democrat voters.
So the Soviet Socialist Republic of the last century who murdered millions of their own citizens and the Islamic Jihadist doctrine advocated exclusively by Mohammed's Islam religion are good things?
Did I say they were? NO! I said socialism and Islam aren;t bad things. This doesn't mean people take these ideas and rape them into something bad. Europe consists mainly (well entirely looking at it from your viewpoint) of socialist country's, and we suffer here everyday at the hands of....Oh wait we don't, we actually have a very good life here, and don't even have to pay for our healthcare, how completely evil of us. Likewises, Islam is not evil, it's what those idiots rape it into that's evil.
Is that what you want to replace American capitalism and government by representation of the republic/people?
No. Did I ever say I did? However, I do think the government should listen to the people, as it is them they represent.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Buzsaw, posted 11-18-2008 9:09 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 171 of 341 (488834)
11-18-2008 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Buzsaw
11-18-2008 9:09 AM


Re: Obama's First Act To Aid Global Terror
If you consider water boarding ... for the purpose of obtaining intelligence info so as to protect the US from folks like these who's goal is to destroy America and other civilizations by terror as torture, yes I Do WAMT these people to be tortured and kept in jail without trial.
You put water boarding in with all those other practices but do you realize that it can be lethal?
What is your position on US citizens being subjected to such things?

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Buzsaw, posted 11-18-2008 9:09 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 11-18-2008 11:40 AM Jazzns has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 172 of 341 (488835)
11-18-2008 11:23 AM


Be Mindful, My Friends
Be mindful that we're not dealing with US citizens but international terrorists who have no legal rights until we should be so stupid as to bring them to our nation's courts, allowing them all of the rights of American citizens. These are suicidal time bombs waiting for the opportunity to do the most destruction and genocide possible by expending their very lives.
Be mindful that water boarding is not considered lethal and would only be under very extreme application which out nation has no history of practicing.
Be mindful that to close down Gitmo would be a boon to the terrorists and a grave danger to America and the rest of the world. Extreme measures would not be out of order in order to obtain valuable information from these people.
Be mindful that the detainees at Gitmo are, relative to the way Islamist nations treat their captured, treated extremely well; well fed and allowed to practice their religion in prison, something a Christian would be killed for in any Islamic prison.
Be mindful that we have released all who are not the worst of the worse and the most deadly enemies of life.
Be mindful that these are not official legitimiate army prisoners of war covered under the Geneva prisoner guidelines.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by kuresu, posted 11-18-2008 11:47 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 175 by Huntard, posted 11-18-2008 12:03 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 178 by Straggler, posted 11-18-2008 1:37 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 183 by RAZD, posted 11-18-2008 6:46 PM Buzsaw has not replied

DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 173 of 341 (488836)
11-18-2008 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by Jazzns
11-18-2008 11:04 AM


Re: Obama's First Act To Aid Global Terror
If you consider water boarding ... for the purpose of obtaining intelligence info so as to protect the US from folks like these who's goal is to destroy America and other civilizations by terror as torture, yes I Do WAMT these people to be tortured and kept in jail without trial.
The military limits the treatment that can be done to prisoners. Waterboarding is considered torture in the military and is illegal. During the Vietnam war two U.S. soldiers were court-martialled for using it against a North Vietnamese POW. John McCain himself is an opponent to waterboarding and other torture practices.
How far down this slipper slope do we go? What about electroshock treatment? Pulling fingernails? Cutting off limbs? Do we go back to the inquisition type tortures? So where do we draw the line? When they are dead? If so, what differentiates us from the terrorist?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Jazzns, posted 11-18-2008 11:04 AM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Jazzns, posted 11-18-2008 12:12 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 174 of 341 (488837)
11-18-2008 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by Buzsaw
11-18-2008 11:23 AM


Re: Be Mindful, My Friends
Be mindful that to close down Gitmo would be a boon to the terrorists and a grave danger to America and the rest of the world. Extreme measures would not be out of order in order to obtain valuable information from these people.
Or it could show the world that the US cares about the rule of law. That the US is not the great satan. Gitmo is propaganda to terrorists: "look how those infidel bastards lock us up!". No gitmo, no percieved abuses of human decency, no dismissal of basic human rights, no effective propaganda to enlist a young suicide bomber to fight against the US.
Extreme measures would not be out of order in order to obtain valuable information from these people.
Do you remember that joke from the RNC about McCain's torture? That he gave the starting line-up of the green bay packers as the names of his comrades? Torture is notoriously unreliable. The victim gives you the answer they think you want to hear or any plausible answer to stop the torture. Torture can be used to obtain false confessions. Torture should not be used to gather information to save lives because such information could easily be wrong (and often is). And then its unethical. Read up on Beccaria.
allowed to practice their religion in prison, something a Christian would be killed for in any Islamic prison.
Evidence? I don't think you have any.
Be mindful that these are not official legitimiate army prisoners of war covered under the Geneva prisoner guidelines.
Why? Because they don't belong to a state army? Perhaps Geneva needs revisions?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Buzsaw, posted 11-18-2008 11:23 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 175 of 341 (488838)
11-18-2008 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Buzsaw
11-18-2008 11:23 AM


Re: Be Mindful, My Friends
Buzsaw writes:
Be mindful that we're not dealing with US citizens but international terrorists
Terrorists eh? Mind backing that up with evidence. Please Buz, just show me evidence these men have done anything wrong, it'll bring me your way. If they have done something wrong they deserve prison, even some harsh interrogation, but not torture.
who have no legal rights until we should be so stupid as to bring them to our nation's courts, allowing them all of the rights of American citizens.
Again, that's undermining the way justice is supposed to work, and should NOT be done.
These are suicidal time bombs waiting for the opportunity to do the most destruction and genocide possible by expending their very lives.
I hate to keep saying this Buz, but where's your evidence for this?
Be mindful that water boarding is not considered lethal and would only be under very extreme application which out nation has no history of practicing.
It's still considered torture. Something doesn't have to be lethal to be considered torture, in fact it's better when the subject lives for as long as possible.
Be mindful that to close down Gitmo would be a boon to the terrorists and a grave danger to America and the rest of the world.
Like under Clinton, when there was no Gitmo? And please show evidence that this is the case. By the way, you seem to be in on what these terrorists are thinking, perhaps we should "interrogate" you.
Extreme measures would not be out of order in order to obtain valuable information from these people.
Yes they would be, since no evidence is provided they have done anything wrong.
Be mindful that the detainees at Gitmo are, relative to the way Islamist nations treat their captured, treated extremely well
And? They are treated very poorly considering how prisoners are treated in the Netherlands. Which, by the way, I think is is too soft.
well fed and allowed to practice their religion in prison, something a Christian would be killed for in any Islamic prison.
So? They're still not rightfully detained, since no evidence is shown they deserve to be there.
Be mindful that we have released all who are not the worst of the worse and the most deadly enemies of life.
Evidence of this would be....?
Be mindful that these are not official legitimiate army prisoners of war covered under the Geneva prisoner guidelines.
Which is EXACTLY why their treatment is so scandalous, they should be at least treated as that.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Buzsaw, posted 11-18-2008 11:23 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 176 of 341 (488839)
11-18-2008 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by DevilsAdvocate
11-18-2008 11:40 AM


Re: Obama's First Act To Aid Global Terror
You do realize that I was quoting Buz right?
I think he is particularly wrong on this issue. More wrong than he normally is. Believing in voodoo, creationism, alt-med, etc is less dangerous than thinking that Gitmo is actually an OKAY place for the US to have.

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 11-18-2008 11:40 AM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5520 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 177 of 341 (488841)
11-18-2008 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Buzsaw
11-18-2008 9:09 AM


Re: Obama's First Act To Aid Global Terror
If you consider water boarding, interrogation of terrorist Jihadists by a woman, non-life threatening deprivation of meals on occasions of interrogation and lowering cell temperatures to non-life threatening degrees for the purpose of obtaining intelligence info so as to protect the US from folks like these who's goal is to destroy America and other civilizations by terror as torture, yes I Do WAMT these people to be tortured and kept in jail without trial. That's why these folks are out of our nation; so we won't have to provide them with clever and expensive lawyers who know how to get them released into our population.
I have to say that. Waterboarding IS torture, and torture IS unamerican. So, yes Buz, I think you are unamerican (How do you like being labeled?). Buz, I think that people that defend Guantanamo are a bigger threat to America then the Terrorists. I say that because while the terrorists threaten american lives, they do not have the power to threaten america's freedom. People like you do.
Edited by fallacycop, : Typos

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Buzsaw, posted 11-18-2008 9:09 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 178 of 341 (488846)
11-18-2008 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Buzsaw
11-18-2008 11:23 AM


Re: Be Mindful, My Friends
Buz with no evidence and no trial of any sort how many of these prisoners are completely innocent?
10%? 30%? 50%? 80%? 90%? How many do you think?
What percentage of all the prisoners that have been, or still are detained at Guantanamo, have actually been found guilty of anything at all? How many have revealed anything useful?
How many innocents are you willing to lock up and torture repeatedly for years?
How is this total disregard for international law and innocent victims along with an "all means are justified by the ends" attitude really any different from the level of morality demonstrated by terrorists.
Buz bear in mind that no-one believes themselves to be evil. No matter how misguided they may be, all those who commit atrocities genuinely believe themselves to be justified and righteous.
No matter how justified or righteaous you may feel certain actions to be if at the end of the day those actions are morally wrong then ultimately you are no more moral or justified than those that you oppose.
There has to be a line. In most people's eyes Guantanamo oversteps that line by a country mile.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Buzsaw, posted 11-18-2008 11:23 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Buzsaw, posted 11-18-2008 5:05 PM Straggler has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 179 of 341 (488855)
11-18-2008 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Straggler
11-18-2008 1:37 PM


Re: Be Mindful, My Friends
Straggler writes:
Buz with no evidence and no trial of any sort how many of these prisoners are completely innocent?
10%? 30%? 50%? 80%? 90%? How many do you think?
Likely 99.9%. Out of all of the thousands who are considered dangerous having been encountered in this global war on terror there are a scanty few of the most dangerous at Gitmo. That's a given.
What percentage of all the prisoners that have been, or still are detained at Guantanamo, have actually been found guilty of anything at all? How many have revealed anything useful?
They have no trials. If they've been shown to be dangerous that's where they are safely detained. In the past when these types are turned over to their own governments they end up escaping or released to kill our troops and others. This has worked very effectively. So long as the allies of these detainees know Gitmo exists it remains a deterant for them to get in trouble and end up there. With no Gitmo, the global terrorists know they can get better treatment in the US courts etc or even be released.
Whatever number of dangerous terrorists is essential to continue protecting America's mainland that's how many and how long they should stay their.
How is this total disregard for international law and innocent victims along with an "all means are justified by the ends" attitude really any different from the level of morality demonstrated by terrorists.
As I stated Geneva guidelines for conventional warfare does not apply. These are not innocent victims.
Why should we be so concerned about the welfare of these terrorists when our troops are risking their lives and giving up their home comforts to kill these types over there. These folks at Gitmo are lucky Americans have them. Russia or any of their Islamic rivals would lop their heads off and be done with them after they tortured the life out of them to get confessions or info.
The way you (mostly younger Americans think is scarey. If you people had your way, our freedoms would be totally gone a long time ago. America's younger generations are setting us all up for what happened in Europe last century.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Straggler, posted 11-18-2008 1:37 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by kuresu, posted 11-18-2008 5:35 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 181 by Straggler, posted 11-18-2008 5:36 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 182 by Huntard, posted 11-18-2008 5:50 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 186 by anglagard, posted 11-19-2008 2:22 AM Buzsaw has not replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 180 of 341 (488859)
11-18-2008 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by Buzsaw
11-18-2008 5:05 PM


Re: Be Mindful, My Friends
The way you (mostly younger Americans think is scarey. If you people had your way, our freedoms would be totally gone a long time ago. America's younger generations are setting us all up for what happened in Europe last century.
That, or we're sick and tired of fighting a war that ended a generation ago.
That, or we've learned the lesson from your generations mistakes. And are determined to not repeat them.
By the way, after WWII, Europe has experienced effectively no wars. Sure, there was Iceland v UK, UK v Argentina, Franco, and finally in the 90s the ethnic cleansing in the Balkans and a couple of wars there.
Europe has had peace and freedom for 60+ years. That is unheard of in European history.
After WWII, the EEC was created, leading to the EU, leading to one of the great experiments in intra-government. Never before has Europe been so tightly bound to the rest of Europe (though these binds compare not to the US states and federal gov't). The EEC and EU has seen the emergence of a new economic zone with a strong currency and a major player on the world stage.
Yes, having peace, economic prosperity, and freedom is a really, really bad thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Buzsaw, posted 11-18-2008 5:05 PM Buzsaw has not replied

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