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Author Topic:   Expectations For The New Obama Democrat Government
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 181 of 341 (488860)
11-18-2008 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by Buzsaw
11-18-2008 5:05 PM


Re: Be Mindful, My Friends
Straggler writes:
Buz with no evidence and no trial of any sort how many of these prisoners are completely innocent?
10%? 30%? 50%? 80%? 90%? How many do you think?
Buz writes:
Likely 99.9%.
Buz writes:
As I stated Geneva guidelines for conventional warfare does not apply. These are not innocent victims.
But didn't you just say 99.9% are innocent victims?
Anyway as soon as you start invoking lawyer style technicalities as to why certain behaviour is not illegal you have absolutely lost the moral argument as to it's acceptability. the Geneva convention is designed to protect human rights. By abandoning it, whether technically illegal or not, you are indisputably compromising human rights.
One last point: Given your fear of Obama would you not rather that the US government did not have the right to imprison indefinitely without trial anyone who meets the purely arbitrary definition of a "national security threat"?
Such measures have been used by pretty much every tyrannical dictatorship to get rid of anyone who poses a political threat. Surely you would welcome the removal of this power from a government that you fear?
I oppose Guantanamo on principle. When you give any government the right to imprison people without trial or charge that right is inevitably going to be abused one day. By one administration or the next.
Here in the UK various "anti-terror" laws have been imposed which would potentially give the government all sorts of opportunity for abuse of those it is supposedly protecting.
America's younger generations are setting us all up for what happened in Europe last century.
What was that then...........?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Buzsaw, posted 11-18-2008 5:05 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 182 of 341 (488861)
11-18-2008 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by Buzsaw
11-18-2008 5:05 PM


Re: Be Mindful, My Friends
Buzsaw writes:
Likely 99.9%. Out of all of the thousands who are considered dangerous having been encountered in this global war on terror there are a scanty few of the most dangerous at Gitmo. That's a given.
You're saying that 99.9% of the people at Gitmo have done absolutely nothing wrong? And you STILL support it?
They have no trials.
Which is a travesty.
If they've been shown to be dangerous that's where they are safely detained.
If they can be shown to be dangerous, that means there is evidence of this, and they can be convicted in a court. No need to detain them unlawfully.
In the past when these types are turned over to their own governments they end up escaping or released to kill our troops and others.
Then don't release them to their own governments, bring them to America, or any other country you do trust (that won't be many, if any at all) and have them tried there, if there is evidence, they will be convicted.
This has worked very effectively.
Very effective indeed, there hasn't been a single suicide bomber in Iraq since, oh I don't know, last week? Clear signs it's finally working....
So long as the allies of these detainees know Gitmo exists it remains a deterant for them to get in trouble and end up there.
They most likely never end up there, as they blow themselves up, kinda defeats the point, won't you say?
With no Gitmo, the global terrorists know they can get better treatment in the US courts etc or even be released.
And you don't think EVERYBODY should have a fair trial?
Whatever number of dangerous terrorists is essential to continue protecting America's mainland that's how many and how long they should stay their.
So, this basically means detaining 99.9% innocent people for infinity, basically.
As I stated Geneva guidelines for conventional warfare does not apply.
They should, however.
These are not innocent victims.
You just said 99.9% of them are innocent. So where's the evidence of their guilt?
Why should we be so concerned about the welfare of these terrorists when our troops are risking their lives and giving up their home comforts to kill these types over there.
We don't know they are terrorists, you keep asserting that, where is your evidence for this? And I think your troops have made too great a sacrifice allready.
These folks at Gitmo are lucky Americans have them.
Tell that to them the next time they get waterboarded....
Russia or any of their Islamic rivals would lop their heads off and be done with them after they tortured the life out of them to get confessions or info.
Yes, and we should show ourselves superior by not doing that, and treating them as human beings.
The way you (mostly younger Americans think is scarey.
No Buz, the way YOU think is scary, as it's a direct threat to freedom of ANY individual you care to name as a terrorist, evidence or not.
If you people had your way, our freedoms would be totally gone a long time ago.
Are we projecting? I'm all for a strict and hard punishment for terrorists, as long as they are proven to be so in a court of law, not because someone says they are.
America's younger generations are setting us all up for what happened in Europe last century.
And you just lost the debate, good job there mate. Europe turned out fine didn't it. Yes, you lot helped, thank you for that, but we're still doing a whole lot better in some ways now then you are, personal freedom comes to mind. Though they're trying to take that away as well.
I'm going to try to get my point across again.
I'm saying that terrorists should be punished SEVERELY for what they are trying to do to other people. However, I want them to be tried in a court of law, this is a right of ANY human being, no matter WHAT he did. If the evidence shows him to be as terrible as everyone says he is, they have my blessing to lock him away for a very long time, if not forever. I'm kinda not feeling very much for death penalty here, but I suppose there are situations in which it could be a possibility. In any case, robbing a human being of his freedom and torturing him is NOT the way to show that you have the moral high ground, and that your values are superior to anyone else's, in fact it does quite the opposite.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Buzsaw, posted 11-18-2008 5:05 PM Buzsaw has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 183 of 341 (488866)
11-18-2008 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Buzsaw
11-18-2008 11:23 AM


Re: Be Mindful, My Friends
Be mindful that we're not dealing with US citizens but ...
Why should this make a difference in how people are treated? If our rights and freedoms are truly based on the concept that all people are equal, that all people have basic inalienable rights, that all people should be treated equally under the law, with habeus corpus and trial by one's peers, where they have an opportunity to see and to challenge the evidence against them, etc etc etc ...
... where is there a line that can honestly be drawn that excludes some people from these basic principles of justice?
Be mindful that the detainees at Gitmo are, relative to the way Islamist nations treat their captured, treated extremely well; well fed and allowed to practice their religion in prison, something a Christian would be killed for in any Islamic prison.
And this is sufficient excuse to throw away our heritage of fair treatment, to spit in the face of treaties signed about treatment of prisoners, and to discard so carelessly the best argument we had about the treatment of our people in foreign prisons?
Why aren't we better off saying "look how we treat our prisoners, please treat out people the same" from the moral high ground, instead of wallowing in the playground retoric "but he did it first" ... ?
Be mindful that these are not official legitimiate army prisoners of war covered under the Geneva prisoner guidelines.
The biggest lie ever told. There are three major problems with this argument:
(1) If they are not "legitimiate army prisoners of war covered under the Geneva prisoner guidelines" then neither can our soldiers be "legitimiate army prisoners of war covered under the Geneva prisoner guidelines" because they are fighting the same battles.
(2) this means that the invasion is not a legitimate war, and that those that started it should be prosecuted as war criminals.
(3) The Geneva convention is designed to cover the treatment of prisoners in the most trying of times, when normal laws do not apply. As such it should be regarded as a minimum level of humane treatment of prisoners.
Extreme measures would not be out of order in order to obtain valuable information from these people.
How. dare. you.
You know nothing of these people or of the conditions that lead to their being incarcerated.
I think I'll go be sick.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Buzsaw, posted 11-18-2008 11:23 AM Buzsaw has not replied

AnswersInGenitals
Member (Idle past 151 days)
Posts: 673
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 184 of 341 (488882)
11-18-2008 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
11-05-2008 9:07 AM


A health care system to die for!
BuzSaw writes:
What can we expect to eventually become reality according to the agenda of the new far left Obama and Congress:.......
2. Socialized medicine.
Buz, have you aver served in the (US) military? Did you receive any medical treatment while serving? If so, who signed your doctors paycheck? And who built, owned and operated the hospital? Where do you think your beloved idol Bush or anyone in his family, and all those conservative Republican senators and congressman go for medical treatment? Guess what? This country ALREADY HAS socialized medicine! It's just only available (now) to a few select groups and individuals. And , surprise, surprise, the reason all these folks who are able to use America's socialized medical system do so is because IT'S THE BEST MEDICAL CARE YOU CAN GET IN THE COUNTRY! Or at least it was before Bush/Chaney/Rumsfeld, with their bumper sticker mentality towards "support the troops", underfunded and degraded it for those that needed it the most. America is rapidly approaching a health care crisis that will make the sub-prime mortgage debacle look miniscule by comparison and is due to four main issues:
1) Americans are waking up to the fact that the myth that the US has the world's best health care system is just that, a myth. There are 20 nations in the world that provide better health care for their citizens than the US. This doesn't mean that the US is way behind them in the quality of health care - the US and these 20 countries are fairly tightly clustered together. But the US is at the bottom of that group. The point is that the current system in the US does not provide better health care than is available elsewhere. In fact, it is a little worse.
2) Fifteen percent of US citizens, over 45 million people, are without health insurance. This means that any significant heath problems, diseases, or accidents could bankrupt them. And this number is now growing and as the Bush recession unfolds with massive layoffs, will skyrocket. The number of citizens in those 20 countries without health coverage is 0, 0%! Every citizen has health care coverage and does not have to worry about catastrophic losses in case of illness. Maybe that's one of the reasons they're healthier.
3) (This is the most shocking one!) The US spends almost $2 trillion per year on health care. This averages out to over $6,000 per citizen (whether insured or not). What's the bill in those 20 countries with better care and universal coverage? About $3,000! Just one half of what we pay. Imagine what it would mean if we could do what they are doing. We'd save $1 trillion per year which could be added back into our $13 trillion economy to address our other problems and needs.
So, what do these countries have that gives these great advantages in health care? Socialized medicine! It goes by various names and has various implementations, but the central government pays all the health workers and provides all the facilities in one way or another. It is socialized medicine. I am not saying that socialism is the best or even a good solution for all industries. I suspect that I am a more dyed-in-the-wool capitalist that you are. But there are some industries that do work best under government ownership and management. All our roads and highways are built, owned and operated by various levels of government. Our military is owned and operated by our government (it could be privatized, but I doubt that anyone would consider that a viable arrangement). Our national parks (and state and local parks) are developed, owned, and operated by the government. Much of our electric production, such as the large dams and the Tennessee Valley Authority are government projects. And these institutions and facilities are the best in the world.
But the conservatives will cry that socialized medicine is not right for America, that our system is still somehow better than the others, and that we couldn't change horses now even if we wanted to. That brings me to issue number
4) Which I already covered above: We already have socialized medicine in America. It's the Veterans Administration hospital system. It works and that it provides the best medicine available in this country is proved by the fact that those conservative politicians who can, make full use of it. They use, if for nothing else, to help find a cure for their talking-out-of-two-sides-of-your-mouth syndrome.
The really big question is: how do we transition form our current failed and over priced system to the thoroughly tried and tested socialized system that works, and do so with the least disruption to our citizens? This question itself requires a lot of discussion and might make a good thread, but America has taken the first important step: We have elected a liberal Democrat to the presidency.
Edited by AnswersInGenitals, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Buzsaw, posted 11-05-2008 9:07 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by Buzsaw, posted 11-25-2008 7:53 PM AnswersInGenitals has not replied

anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 185 of 341 (488885)
11-19-2008 1:31 AM


The Morality of Brutality
Indeed, the Gospel according to Frederick Nietzsche.
Unmask a bully and one always ultimately finds a coward underneath.
Just ask Limbaugh, Buchanan, Cheney, Gramm, etc.
Ask them "what did you do in the war, daddy?"
And the great hero, Junior, drunk and full of cocaine back in Alabama, daddy will always make it right, right until you get hypnotized by Putin with his 'lovely blue eyes.'
Now about the politics and religion of hate and fear, who is the patriot and who is the subversive?
Edited by anglagard, : inadequate final phrase
Edited by anglagard, : massive

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon
The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 186 of 341 (488886)
11-19-2008 2:22 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by Buzsaw
11-18-2008 5:05 PM


Evil is as Evil Preaches
Buzsaw writes:
The way you (mostly younger Americans think is scarey. If you people had your way, our freedoms would be totally gone a long time ago. America's younger generations are setting us all up for what happened in Europe last century.
And your record of military service is?
I was in military intelligence in the mid 80s. I helped in whatever small way to defeat the Soviet Union without firing a shot among the primary antagonists.
Sorry, Buz, didn't often incinerate children in the mid 80s on the long march to inevitable defeat. We did what you must hate the most, victory for Western Civilization with minimal casualties.
But like most the rest of the world, we were not born to satisfy your sadism or blood lust.

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon
The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Buzsaw, posted 11-18-2008 5:05 PM Buzsaw has not replied

johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5591 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 187 of 341 (488887)
11-19-2008 2:29 AM


I fully expect Obama and the democrats to commit treason shortly in the coming months in respect to US soverignty of our money and world law being soverign over US law. People are already starting to buy guns again because of the change thats coming, etc...
Watch public television they have there people preparing us as we speak telling us that we have to give up our soverignty to be part of this bigger monetary picture. Whats going to happen to our military if and when he gifts our soverignty out the window? Will it be like Clinton where our soldiers were forced to be serving in the united nations, with our soldiers being dragged thru the streets of Somolia, etc...
P.S. Its interesting that Obama's grand pappy was a migrant worker married a Palestinan girl and returned to Kenya. What is also interesting on Obama's mothers side he is George Bush's tenth cousin.
Edited by johnfolton, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
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anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 188 of 341 (488888)
11-19-2008 2:47 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by johnfolton
11-19-2008 2:29 AM


I Would like To Take This Opportunity to Apologize to the Rest of the World
johnfolton writes:
I fully expect Obama and the democrats to commit treason shortly in the coming months in respect to US soverignty of our money and world law being soverign over US law. People are already starting to buy guns again because of the change thats coming, etc...
Watch public television they have there people preparing us as we speak telling us that we have to give up our soverignty to be part of this bigger monetary picture. Whats going to happen to our military if and when he gifts our soverignty out the window? Will it be like Clinton where our soldiers were forced to be serving in the united nations, with our soldiers being dragged thru the streets of Somolia, etc...
P.S. Its interesting that Obama's grand pappy was a migrant worker married a Palestinan girl and returned to Kenya. What is also interesting on Obama's mothers side he is George Bush's tenth cousin.
I apologize to the world for this kind of ignorant redneck rascist post from someone who evidently has not accepted the defeat of the traitor states (aka Confederacy) in the Civil War 150 years ago.
The days of judging people by their melanin count here are not over yet but we are starting to see the beginning of the end.
In another generation, given the attitude of youth and the abundance of voting minority groups, I believe America will finally be largely rid of the supporters of 1861 treason against the USA.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by johnfolton, posted 11-19-2008 2:29 AM johnfolton has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by Huntard, posted 11-19-2008 4:32 AM anglagard has not replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 189 of 341 (488892)
11-19-2008 4:32 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by anglagard
11-19-2008 2:47 AM


Re: I Would like To Take This Opportunity to Apologize to the Rest of the World
No need to appologise Angalard, I know it's just the loonies that think that way.
However I do fear the media image created of your country over here isn't doing the image people have of you any good. Let's hope it changes as well with this new direction you seem to have taken.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by anglagard, posted 11-19-2008 2:47 AM anglagard has not replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 190 of 341 (488904)
11-19-2008 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by johnfolton
11-19-2008 2:29 AM


johnfolton writes:
I fully expect Obama and the democrats to commit treason shortly in the coming months in respect to US soverignty of our money and world law being soverign over US law.
You have evidence that points to them intending to do so? If so please provide it so we can fight them together.
People are already starting to buy guns again because of the change thats coming, etc...
People do stupid things for the wrong reasons all the time, why would it be different now?
Watch public television they have there people preparing us as we speak telling us that we have to give up our soverignty to be part of this bigger monetary picture.
Unfortunately, I can't watch your public television, so if you could provide me with any info on what they are doing, I'd appreciate it.
Whats going to happen to our military if and when he gifts our soverignty out the window?
Evidence he intends to do this?
Will it be like Clinton where our soldiers were forced to be serving in the united nations, with our soldiers being dragged thru the streets of Somolia, etc...
As opposed to them getting killed in far greater numbers in Iraq? Yes, the Clinton years were far worse, weren't they?
P.S. Its interesting that Obama's grand pappy was a migrant worker married a Palestinan girl and returned to Kenya. What is also interesting on Obama's mothers side he is George Bush's tenth cousin.
Your point being?

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by johnfolton, posted 11-19-2008 2:29 AM johnfolton has not replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 191 of 341 (488907)
11-19-2008 10:33 AM


Obama is good for terrorism . . .or, wait, nvm
http://news.yahoo.com/...19/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_al_qaida_obama
Funny that Al-Zawahri feels the need to insult Obama and emphasize that the president elect is not going to change US foreign policy in respect to the middle east.
Of course, Al-Qeada did support John McCain, so . . .
Now what were you saying Buz?

Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 192 of 341 (488961)
11-20-2008 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by cavediver
11-18-2008 9:24 AM


Re: Obama's First Act To Aid Global Terror
Piss for brains (cavediver) writes:
Good to see that as long as Buz is around, Idiot America is alive and kicking
Buz, dont bother, your trying to reason with puke bag liberals and we know that what is right or wrong is never an issue with liberals, its always about thier agendas. We also know that liberalism is a mental disorder and the ones you are trying to reason with are classic examples, dont waste your time.
Buzz dont worry about the terroist's, these liberals will destroy your country from within, or they will slowly give it away one "right" at a time. I have two bumper stickers on the back of my car, one reads. "Atheism, Evolution and Humanism, AKA, Willful Stupidity", the other one says, Liberals and Criminals are birds of a feather and both are your REAL threat to National Security"
Your wasing your time Buz but have fun anyway.
D Bertot
Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by cavediver, posted 11-18-2008 9:24 AM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by Huntard, posted 11-20-2008 9:20 AM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 194 by cavediver, posted 11-20-2008 9:50 AM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 196 by cavediver, posted 11-20-2008 9:53 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 193 of 341 (488963)
11-20-2008 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 192 by Dawn Bertot
11-20-2008 9:04 AM


Re: Obama's First Act To Aid Global Terror
Bertot writes:
Piss for brains (cavediver) writes:
How nice of you.
Buz, dont bother, your trying to reason with puke bag liberals and we know that what is right or wrong is never an issue with liberals, its always about thier agendas. We also know that liberalism is a mental disorder and the ones you are trying to reason with are classic examples, dont waste your time.
First of all, I'm using every restraint I have right now to not sink to your level. So far it's working.
A few points:
1)I'm not a "liberal" at least not in the sense you mean.
2)What is your definition of liberal anyway?
3)Would you care to show how liberalism is indeed a mental disorder?
If you don't respond to these points, I'll consider your post a waste of my time, but more importantly, that you don't even have a point and just wanted to piss people off. It almost worked.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-20-2008 9:04 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-20-2008 9:50 AM Huntard has replied

cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 194 of 341 (488964)
11-20-2008 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 192 by Dawn Bertot
11-20-2008 9:04 AM


Re: Obama's First Act To Aid Global Terror
Piss for brains (cavediver)
Oh Bertot, you do so love to prove the point. How does it feel to be a central part of that group that has made the USA the laughing stock of the intelligent world? Idiot America in deed for all to see
Love
CD

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-20-2008 9:04 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-20-2008 9:58 AM cavediver has replied

Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 195 of 341 (488965)
11-20-2008 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 193 by Huntard
11-20-2008 9:20 AM


Re: Obama's First Act To Aid Global Terror
Bertot writes:
Piss for brains (cavediver) writes:
Huntard writes:
How nice of you.
I wonder, do you happen to see how Cavediver treats people in his responses? Do you give him the same repremands that you do me and others, for off comments or sarcasm? Or is it just the fellas you disagree with?
First of all, I'm using every restraint I have right now to not sink to your level. So far it's working.
Since I was not talking to you but that "bucket mouth" form the UK, you should not be offended in any respect, correct?
A few points:
1)I'm not a "liberal" at least not in the sense you mean.
2)What is your definition of liberal anyway?
3)Would you care to show how liberalism is indeed a mental disorder?
1. Really, exacally what kind of liberal are you?
2. Anyone who ignores simple principles of common sense to advance an agenda.
3. Would not anyone who ignores basic principles of common sense and rational need professional help?
If you don't respond to these points, I'll consider your post a waste of my time, but more importantly, that you don't even have a point and just wanted to piss people off. It almost worked.
Trust me there is no goal here to piss people off. All anyone has to do with you fellas to get you torked off is simple disagree with you or have a different opinion about an issue and that sets you fellas running. Really Huntard you should not take responses to others so personal. The one I wrote it to probably understood its content and its sarcasm. Hes a bombastic clown that needs to be called on the carpet from time to time, or are you just ignoring his posts?
D Bertot
D Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Huntard, posted 11-20-2008 9:20 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
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