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Author Topic:   Expectations For The New Obama Democrat Government
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 211 of 341 (489103)
11-23-2008 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 209 by Dawn Bertot
11-23-2008 10:47 AM


Re: Obama's First Act To Aid Global Terror
Actually most if not all of these examples are anrchy and liberalism. The results which came about may be more benificial than the previous condition, but the end does not justify the means. In the instances where there is obvious physical abuse and death, for no obvious or justified reason, the government is not acting in a sane manner, so a person has a given right to protect and defend themselves, or have others protect them. Otherwise it should be non violent change that brigs about change in policies.
BTW, liberalism is not synonomous with anarchy. Where do you get this from?
According to the Standford Encyclopedia of Philosophy:
Liberals have typically maintained that humans are naturally in ”a State of perfect Freedom to order their Actions . as they think fit . without asking leave, or depending on the Will of any other Man’ (Locke, 1960 [1689]: 287). Mill too argued that ”the burden of proof is supposed to be with those who are against liberty; who contend for any restriction or prohibition . . The a priori assumption is in favour of freedom . ’ (1963, vol. 21: 262).
That is everyone has equal rights and freedoms as outlined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights drafted and radified by the UN as well as those in the US Declaration of Independence.
However, I do agree basically with your premise that change in laws and legislation should be done in a non-violent manner if possible unless it immediately endangers the lives of fellow human beings. Even the colonists initially attempted to peacefully change the unjust laws that were binding against them.
Tryanny in whatever form is not justified, even if you want to start another country.
I guess you don't approve of the colonialist cause for the Revolutionary War than? The British specifically said the colonialists were committing tyrany. How about overthrowing apartheid in South Africa? The overthrow of the British in India? The overthrow of colonialism in the 19th and 20th centuries?
What about your war in general? WWII? Should we not have come to aid of our allies? Where do you draw the line?

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-23-2008 10:47 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-25-2008 9:49 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 212 of 341 (489106)
11-23-2008 12:56 PM


Another topic closure coming?
Offhand, has there been much improvement over when AdminNosy closed down this topic?
In general, things MIGHT be on topic, but only at the topic theme margins. I think messages should more explicitly connect up with "Expectations For The New Obama Democrat Government" (hey, that's the topic title!).
Adminnemooseus

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There used to be a comedian who presented his ideas for a better world, and one of them was to arm everyone on the highway with little rubber dart guns. Every time you see a driver doing something stupid, you fire a little dart at his car. When a state trooper sees someone driving down the highway with a bunch of darts all over his car he pulls him over for being an idiot.
Please make it easy to tell you apart from the idiots. Source

Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5500 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 213 of 341 (489107)
11-23-2008 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
11-05-2008 9:07 AM


Will BHO decriminalize marijuana?
Buz writes:
What can we expect to eventually become reality according to the agenda of the new far left Obama and Congress:
Decriminalizing marijuana, I should think. The War On Drugs can continue, but he would do the states a big favor by decriminalizing pot. Out here in the Pacific Northwest there is a very lively agriculture of marijuana. I've heard of tax revenue estimates for the state of Washington from the legalization and sales of marijuana to be so high it could fund the entire state's educational system. NORML makes bigger claims than this. For the sake of the desperately needed tax revenue, and for the sake of relief in law enforcement, courts and penal institutions, I predict BHO/Congress will see the green side of this issue and act accordingly.
And smoking marijuana to get high is not the only use of hemp. There could be a hemp agriculture and industry to as replace wood fiber in paper pulping, and to use it for a variety of other things, including biofuels. So much fuss over a simple weed, and one that could be so profitable for all concerned.
”FTF

I can see Lower Slobovia from my house.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Buzsaw, posted 11-05-2008 9:07 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Huntard, posted 11-23-2008 5:38 PM Fosdick has not replied
 Message 215 by Granny Magda, posted 11-23-2008 6:25 PM Fosdick has not replied
 Message 216 by bluescat48, posted 11-23-2008 7:58 PM Fosdick has not replied
 Message 225 by Buzsaw, posted 11-25-2008 7:33 PM Fosdick has replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 214 of 341 (489115)
11-23-2008 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by Fosdick
11-23-2008 1:37 PM


Re: Will BHO decriminalize marijuana?
I think this is a great idea. Over here, they are now finally moving in this direction too, after years of it being illegal but tolerated, they are finally coming to their senses and are moving to legalize it.
I hope it will happen soon. Since there will be benefits for all. Income for the government, and safe pot for everybody.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Fosdick, posted 11-23-2008 1:37 PM Fosdick has not replied

Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 215 of 341 (489120)
11-23-2008 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by Fosdick
11-23-2008 1:37 PM


Re: Will decriminalize marijuana?
Sorry to piss on your strawberries, but...
quote:
Rep. Jim Ramstad's name is bouncing around as a possible "drug czar" ” the name given the head of the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy. Ramstad, a Minnesota Republican, is in recovery himself and has been a longtime proponent of treatment for drug abuse.
{snip} Ramstad has consistently voted against medical marijuana in Congress, opposing an effort to prevent the federal government from raiding or arresting medical marijuana clubs in states where it is legal.
Source
If he is appointed, you can forget it. Let's hope not, because I too think that legalisation would be a wise move. Of course the Ramstad thing is just a rumour as yet. Either way, I wouldn't hold my breath for legal marijuana (sorry, couldn't resist).
Mutate and Survive.

"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Fosdick, posted 11-23-2008 1:37 PM Fosdick has not replied

bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 216 of 341 (489134)
11-23-2008 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by Fosdick
11-23-2008 1:37 PM


Re: Will BHO decriminalize marijuana?
Decriminalizing marijuana, I should think. The War On Drugs can continue, but he would do the states a big favor by decriminalizing pot. Out here in the Pacific Northwest there is a very lively agriculture of marijuana. I've heard of tax revenue estimates for the state of Washington from the legalization and sales of marijuana to be so high it could fund the entire state's educational system. NORML makes bigger claims than this. For the sake of the desperately needed tax revenue, and for the sake of relief in law enforcement, courts and penal institutions, I predict BHO/Congress will see the green side of this issue and act accordingly.
And smoking marijuana to get high is not the only use of hemp. There could be a hemp agriculture and industry to as replace wood fiber in paper pulping, and to use it for a variety of other things, including biofuels. So much fuss over a simple weed, and one that could be so profitable for all concerned.
I totally agree.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Fosdick, posted 11-23-2008 1:37 PM Fosdick has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 11-24-2008 11:09 AM bluescat48 has not replied

DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 217 of 341 (489163)
11-24-2008 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 216 by bluescat48
11-23-2008 7:58 PM


Re: Will BHO decriminalize marijuana?
I myself cannot (active duty military) and have never smoked marijuana. However I really don't see the big deal since smoking another and probably even more harmful drug, tobacco, is not illegal.
I know this is probably off-topic but I thought you would get a kick out of this article from ScienceDaily
Ohio State University scientists are finding that specific elements of marijuana can be good for the aging brain by reducing inflammation there and possibly even stimulating the formation of new brain cells.
You can read on but thought you pot heads might enjoy this article.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by bluescat48, posted 11-23-2008 7:58 PM bluescat48 has not replied

Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 218 of 341 (489221)
11-25-2008 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by DevilsAdvocate
11-23-2008 11:20 AM


Re: Obama's First Act To Aid Global Terror
DA writes:
BTW, liberalism is not synonomous with anarchy. Where do you get this from?
Most if not all activist liberals advocate anarchy through thier actions. For example when Onfrie and others openly admit that they smoke pot and take ILLEGAL drugs they are involving themselves in ANRCHY against the law. If they are not then please tell me what they are doing. Are they simply advocating thier liberalism?
That is everyone has equal rights and freedoms as outlined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights drafted and radified by the UN as well as those in the US Declaration of Independence.
Oh, only if this were practiced it would be a wonderful world. Freedom is not freedom to do anything you want but freedom with in the law. Equal rights are not the right to violate the law in practice or intention.
I certainly do not agree with such things as property tax or inheritence tax, but I am required to follow the law regardless of my personal convictions as to why I dont like it or think it is wrong.
However, I do agree basically with your premise that change in laws and legislation should be done in a non-violent manner if possible unless it immediately endangers the lives of fellow human beings. Even the colonists initially attempted to peacefully change the unjust laws that were binding against them.
Basically?
While I am an American citizen and proud of my country. The colonists were anarchist no matter how you twist it. The other examples you provided do not fall within this category because one nation defending itself against another is defense not anarchy. One nation is independant of anothers laws and rules.
I can say this to you because I am not a Squid or anchor clanker as yourself but was a member of a real service The Air Force, ha ha. But swabbies have thier functions as well I suppose, Ha ah again.
I guess you don't approve of the colonialist cause for the Revolutionary War than? The British specifically said the colonialists were committing tyrany. How about overthrowing apartheid in South Africa? The overthrow of the British in India? The overthrow of colonialism in the 19th and 20th centuries?
A persons life is not decided in a single action or even several. The colonists were an anrchists. What they were for thier whole life as relates to God is a different story. Situation ethics is a myth and in violation to Gods will. If I lie aboout someone in a closet because someone will kill them if I tell, its still a lie. My favorite Old Testament character Abraham lied to Pharoah about his wife to protect her and keep her, but it was lie nonetheless. Except for insolated icesodents, he was overall faithful to God and called the Father of the faithful.
What about your war in general? WWII? Should we not have come to aid of our allies? Where do you draw the line?
You say YOUR war. Do you not agree that we should defend ourselves or others that need assistance from AGGRESSORS? Cavediver would be a prisoner now if it were not for my relatives taking a stance against the Nazis and he would not be able to bore me with his Vacuous speeches, ha ha.
vacuous” ”/vækyus/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [vak-yoo-uhs] Show IPA Pronunciation
-adjective 1. without contents; empty: the vacuous air.
2. lacking in ideas or intelligence: a vacuous mind.
3. expressing or characterized by a lack of ideas or intelligence; inane; stupid: a vacuous book.
4. purposeless; idle: a vacuous way of life.
Ha ha again
D Bertot
Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 11-23-2008 11:20 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by subbie, posted 11-25-2008 3:37 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied
 Message 228 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 11-25-2008 8:27 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 219 of 341 (489245)
11-25-2008 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Dawn Bertot
11-25-2008 9:49 AM


Re: Obama's First Act To Aid Global Terror
quote:
While I am an American citizen and proud of my country. The colonists were anarchist no matter how you twist it.
Oh dear. Please tell me we're not going to spend another thread centered on Bertot's own personal definition of a word.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-25-2008 9:49 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Huntard, posted 11-25-2008 3:57 PM subbie has not replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 220 of 341 (489247)
11-25-2008 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by subbie
11-25-2008 3:37 PM


Re: Obama's First Act To Aid Global Terror
I for one am not. I've come to the conclusion it is best to ignore him.
Now, anybody have anything useful to say about the topic?

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by subbie, posted 11-25-2008 3:37 PM subbie has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by onifre, posted 11-25-2008 4:49 PM Huntard has not replied
 Message 222 by Jazzns, posted 11-25-2008 4:50 PM Huntard has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 221 of 341 (489257)
11-25-2008 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by Huntard
11-25-2008 3:57 PM


Wait...what...?
I for one am not. I've come to the conclusion it is best to ignore him.
I say let him go...I need the material.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Huntard, posted 11-25-2008 3:57 PM Huntard has not replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 222 of 341 (489258)
11-25-2008 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by Huntard
11-25-2008 3:57 PM


Expectations based on actual news...
Seems like Obama has been in the news talking a lot about a ~1 trillion dollar public works project.
You can also tell from his pick for Secretary of HHS that he plans on trying to move very quickly on universal healthcare and spending his early political capital on that.
IMO the univeral healthcare is something that absolutly needs to happen. If you want to help out the auto industry you can forget about giving them a loan if you are instead going to remove the burden of legacy and current health care costs. We are one of the only industrialized nations that still thinks health care belongs in the free market. In the mean time, our companies are trying to compete with foreign peers who do not have to bear the burden of health care for their employees. We see the results directly, and it is long past time that this changes.

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Huntard, posted 11-25-2008 3:57 PM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Huntard, posted 11-25-2008 5:09 PM Jazzns has not replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 223 of 341 (489259)
11-25-2008 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by Jazzns
11-25-2008 4:50 PM


Re: Expectations based on actual news...
Jazzns writes:
Seems like Obama has been in the news talking a lot about a ~1 trillion dollar public works project.
I thought it was a 500 billion dollar project? has he doubled it?
About universal health care:
I pretty much agree, over here we of course have it, and I must say to me it is unthinkable that someone who is ill can not see a doctor because they can't afford it. I am still amazed the USA held on to this system for such a long time.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Jazzns, posted 11-25-2008 4:50 PM Jazzns has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by onifre, posted 11-25-2008 5:23 PM Huntard has not replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 224 of 341 (489260)
11-25-2008 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by Huntard
11-25-2008 5:09 PM


Re: Expectations based on actual news...
I am still amazed the USA held on to this system for such a long time.
This shouldn't surprise anyone. The only ones currently affected by privatized insurance in the US are the lower-middle class and the poor class. Two classes that our government has never been concerned with.
Why would they need universal insurance when the people who have the wealth and make the decisions aren't affected by it?
You can see how quickly money is poured in to save the stock market, and soon to the auto industry...but not to the health care system. How many people right now i the US could benefit health wise from just half of what is going to be spent to save Wall Street? .
When the wealthy feel the pain, laws are changed and government gets involved, when the poor feel the pain, no one gives a shit. I'll be very surprised to see universal health care in the US anytime soon. The Health Care lobby is too strong, and too influential, and all about the money.

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Huntard, posted 11-25-2008 5:09 PM Huntard has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 225 of 341 (489273)
11-25-2008 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by Fosdick
11-23-2008 1:37 PM


Re: Will BHO decriminalize marijuana?
Fosdick writes:
Decriminalizing marijuana, I should think. The War On Drugs can continue, but he would do the states a big favor by decriminalizing pot.
Fosdick I'm 73 and well remember the days in the US when pot users were few and far between, usually illegal or transient Mexicans, bums and the lowest class non-productive citizens. Problematic drug abuse was quite efficiently dealt with.
As well, the Islamic, pagan and Eastern nations where pot was widely used were the poorest of the third worlders.
No, what we need is to get serious with the war on drugs, mind the borders and win that war. Dull potheads are irrational and often dangerous, too often problematic to any culture of civilization.
Abe: It wouldn't surprise me if Obama is still a pot smoker and that he would work to legalize it in the US.
Edited by Buzsaw, : As noted

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Fosdick, posted 11-23-2008 1:37 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by Fosdick, posted 11-25-2008 7:56 PM Buzsaw has not replied
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