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Author | Topic: COSMOLOGY | |||||||||||||||||||||||
DevilsAdvocate Member (Idle past 3128 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: |
if the earth is in the center of the universe. If the Earth is the centre of the Universe, why is it orbiting the Sun? And why is the Sun stuck in the murky backwaters of the Milky Way Galaxy, and not at the centre? And why is the Milky Way not at the centre of the Local Group? So what you mean by, "the centre of the Universe", is "not in anyway shape or form, the centre of the Universe". Glad we have this straightened out. To expound on this, the universe is infinite in size i.e. no beginning nor end, and thus there is no center. If you back to the limited analogy of the balloon and take the 3 dimensions of the universe (we will disregard the dimension of time to simplify our problem) and translate that to the 2-d surface of that ballon this will make since. An ant walking on that boundless surface of the balloon could walk for inifinity and never find the edge or boundary of that balloon (since there isn't one). If there is no edge than there can be no center. The same principle applies to the universe. The universe has no boundary and no edge. It is infinite in size from a four dimensional perspective- 3 dimensions of space and 1 of time. I will not get into the concepts of a multiverse and the multitide of higher dimensions here unless someone asks. For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Dr. Carl Sagan
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
The red shift is observed. How then, can it be the product of an "a prioi assumption" ?
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DevilsAdvocate Member (Idle past 3128 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: |
Yet we can see the past with sight. No perpetual motion atoms are visible. Yet every scientist believes that atoms are perpetual motion machines because they are the basis of their operationally defined units, their mathematics and their methods. The scientific universe is the most mythical universe ever invented. It is 99% invisible. According to scientists, the vacuum is adjusting the frequency of all ancient light. The vacuum is moving galaxies to clos to the speed of light. The vacuum is crammed full of invisible matter, invisible holes, invisible energies that repelenish themselves out of the vacuum. Why is the scientific universe so mythical? Because they never go back and examine their historical a priori - which the pagan Greeks called arche - first principles. With one single assumption we can eliminate all the cosmological myths. How? Just accept what is visible as fact. No perpetual motion atoms are visible in billions of distant galaxies. Every atom in the whole universe, every atomic clock, is changing as it ages. We even see a biblical cosmic history with sight as billions of galaxies grew into huge growth spirals. First principles really are important. The modern first principle is the foundation for how scientists think, measure and mathematicate. Think about it. What is a "perpetual motion atom"? Please explain, as I am not familiar with that term. My understanding is that the concept of perpetual motion contradicts the laws of thermodynamics in that it is saying that in a closed system the law of the conservation of energy is not preserved. You will need to explain how this applies to individual atoms? Please expound. Please stay scientific and not get all metaphysical with your explanation. Thanks. For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Dr. Carl Sagan
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DevilsAdvocate Member (Idle past 3128 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: |
The scientific universe is the most mythical universe ever invented. You really want to go there? How about the ancient myths of the universe from cultures all over the world i.e. Atlas holding up the world, world on the back of the turtle, etc. You really think the scientific view of the universe is the most mythical?? Can you provide some evidence please.
It is 99% invisible So our atoms and many other things to the human eye. That doesn't mean they don't exist. You can feel the force of the wind, the affects of electricity, etc but you can't see it. We can detect and deduce the presense of dark energy and matter.
According to scientists, the vacuum is adjusting the frequency of all ancient light. Please provide evidence for your assertion. BTW, science does not claim to know all the answers. The mission of science is to find the questions and the answers. Just because science cannot explain why the universe came into existence does not negate all the evidence of how it functions. For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Dr. Carl Sagan
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3670 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
To expound on this, the universe is infinite in size This is still not known. It is clearly large compared to the scale of the Observable Universe, but there is no definitive parameter value (or even model type!) to be able to claim an infinite Universe.
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johnfolton  Suspended Member (Idle past 5618 days) Posts: 2024 Joined: |
So what you mean by, "the centre of the Universe", is "not in anyway shape or form, the centre of the Universe". Glad we have this straightened out. The point of Gentry's video was once you travel out of the center blue shifting of light will occur. right? Hubbles myth is that light will not blue shift anywhere in the universe as all points in the universe is the center. Its like that garbage you hear that the galaxies are not moving only the space between them expanding nonsense all drivel from Hubbles Myth that all points are the center instead of the earth being in the center. Interesting video non the less. whatever, jf Edited by johnfolton, : No reason given.
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3670 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
instead of the earth being in the center But we have just agreed that the Earth is most certainly not at the centre.
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V-Bird Member (Idle past 5612 days) Posts: 211 From: Great Britain Joined: |
Stretching... expanding... growing in size, they are all the same fundamental action, things are moving away from each other.
Stretching would imply a bunching up at the periphery it also has undertone a of a cosmos is an overall stasis and I no of no-one that holds to that in the overwhelming weight of evidence to the contrary. There was and still is a centre, but because of relativity we simply cannot pin point it or even approximate it. The universe is infinite, but the cosmos is not, it is an ever expanding entity within the universe. Nomenclature: Universe means the known and unknown and the void as a single entity. Cosmos means all that has existence in the form of energy/motion/mass. We exist because there is a planet, a habitable planet exists because there is a sun, the sun is part of a galaxy of similar and different suns, the galaxies exist because they are a tiny part of the cosmos filled with billions of them, the cosmos exists because there is a universe a vast empty nothing that allows this wonderful chain of existence to continue unhindered. The cosmos is anachronism, but in the face of a continual timeless nothing something had to eventually happen and so in another respect it is not an anachronism at all.
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V-Bird Member (Idle past 5612 days) Posts: 211 From: Great Britain Joined: |
It is a side effect of relativity that each of us can [with a little stretching of things] consider ourselves the centre of the universe, simply because we each receive as a central body all we know.
It is no wonder that because of this little trick of relative time that we see the world and cosmos in such a self-centred way. We are the centre of the universe, but in the most inconsequential way imaginable, I realised this thanks to understanding relativity and moderate my thoughts to suit. The great irony is this, if we could, perhaps, through measuring tiny differences in the redshift patterns find the centre of the cosmos, it would be absolutely no different to any other part of the cosmos except the cusp! It would be interesting but we'll never go there [unless it was found within our perview of travel] and plant a flag like at the similarly nebulous North Pole. Edited by V-Bird, : Added disclaimer!
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3670 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
You forgot the disclaimer in your heading
There is no centre, nor is there a center!
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V-Bird Member (Idle past 5612 days) Posts: 211 From: Great Britain Joined: |
We don't agree about much, so fair enough.
Your accepted version of the 'event' [can we agree to call it that?] requires there to be no centre, whereas my unaccepted version does. Your cosmos has no faster than light elements [is that still true?] whereas my version requires it for the cosmos to exist at all! Your cosmos requires 'virtual particles' whereas mine does not. Your cosmos still needs unfound particle[s], mine does not, mine only needs to accept the evidence of faster than light phenomena for precisely that. Your cosmos need single pole magnetism or magnetic like attraction, mine does too but I have found it in that FTL interaction. Your cosmos lives on uncertainty, chaos and happenstance, mine just removes HUP, makes sense of what appears chaotic and removes happenstance from it except in that initial vibration in the void. Your cosmos is so aloof that it can't explain an electron cloud as the maths fall apart, mine does not, the same FTL phenomena that keeps the stars rotating about other bodies of equal or greater mass, explains the electron cloud' We don't just 'differ' we are polar opposites! Still, it makes for a good debate. Edited by V-Bird, : Thought I'd add a few more for good measure.
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DevilsAdvocate Member (Idle past 3128 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: |
This is still not known. It is clearly large compared to the scale of the Observable Universe, but there is no definitive parameter value (or even model type!) to be able to claim an infinite Universe. Yes, however, either way whether it is infinite in size or not there is no boundary and thus no center to the universe. For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Dr. Carl Sagan
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3670 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
Yes, however, either way whether it is infinite in size or not there is no boundary and thus no center to the universe. This is almost certainly true.
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2322 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
V-Bird writes:
Would you mind providing us with the maths behind that then?
Your cosmos is so aloof that it can't explain an electron cloud as the maths fall apart, mine does not, the same FTL phenomena that keeps the stars rotating about other bodies of equal or greater mass, explains the electron cloud We don't just 'differ' we are polar opposites!
Indeed, however if I ask CD for the maths behind it all, I'm sure he can provide it. Can you do the same? I hunt for the truth
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3670 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
Would you mind providing us with the maths behind that then? ...if I ask CD for the maths behind it all, I'm sure he can provide it. Can you do the same? And here lies the gaping chasm that separates professional science from armchair musings. We deal in words to convey our science to the interested public, but the actual work is almost predominantly mathematics. Why? Because this enables us to CALCULATE and MAKE NUMERICAL PREDICTIONS. How many of those have we seen from the armchair brigade?
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