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Author Topic:   Expectations For The New Obama Democrat Government
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4208 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 241 of 341 (489418)
11-26-2008 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by Buzsaw
11-26-2008 7:53 PM


Re: IRe: Will BHO decriminalize marijuana?
But for Americanism kind of Americans, na.
What does this mean?

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Buzsaw, posted 11-26-2008 7:53 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3930 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 242 of 341 (489419)
11-26-2008 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by Buzsaw
11-26-2008 8:28 PM


Re: Gates & Stealth
to placate roughly 50% of us Americans who believe Obama is bad for America.
Obama's favorability rating is over 70% and his unfavorability rating is under 25%.
Your 50% is pulled straight out of your ass.
Page Not Found

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by Buzsaw, posted 11-26-2008 8:28 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 243 of 341 (489422)
11-26-2008 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by kuresu
11-26-2008 9:14 PM


Re: IRe: Will BHO decriminalize marijuana?
kuresu writes:
For that matter, I'm probably more centrist than you might realize
Thanks for the clarification, Kuresu. I wondered how it was with Boulder and the state at large. Having grown up in Wyoming, I wondered how Colorado could be so much different.
Being relatively centrist, did you vote for Obama? What do you think of him? Are any of my concerns about him warranted, IYO?
I've come to have some respect for your intelligence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by kuresu, posted 11-26-2008 9:14 PM kuresu has not replied

Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 244 of 341 (489430)
11-27-2008 1:26 AM


Dump the marijuana subtheme and subtitle
Legalizing marijuana seems to be a pretty damn remote priority for the new administration. How about the real issues?
In general, how about subtitles that reflect the message's content?
NO REPLIES TO THIS MESSAGE.
Adminnemooseus

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2313 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 245 of 341 (489433)
11-27-2008 1:42 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by Buzsaw
11-26-2008 7:53 PM


Similarities between Boulder, CO nad the Netherlands?
Would you mind indulging me in this "radical commonality." you say Boulder, CO and My country have?
And I doubt Obama will make one lick of difference to the policies in my country. Perhaps he won't drag us into another unnecessary war. (Oh yes Buz, make no mistake, we have soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq as well) But for the rest, I would be very surprised if he would actually change any policies at all.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Buzsaw, posted 11-26-2008 7:53 PM Buzsaw has not replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2531 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 246 of 341 (489444)
11-27-2008 5:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
11-05-2008 9:07 AM


What can we expect to eventually become reality according to the agenda of the new far left Obama and Congress:
Well, I for one hope for some basic competence in governing. Katrina, in my opinion, is all to symptomatic of the inability of Bush to actually govern. There was no excuse for that kind of gross negligence.
I hope accountability will return. And not the kind of partisan bickering that is likely under the remainder of the GOP that focuses on small, insignificant matters as a means to obstruct, but rather serious accountability like that from the Iran-Contra scandal.
I hope that the rule of law will return. One of the great foundations of this country is the respect for law and rule by it. We won the revolution partly because of this (read up on the American and British campaigns in New Jersey near the start of the war. The brits pillaged. The americans at least attempted to respect property and when they took gave a receipt so compensation could later be claimed). We earned respect around the world for this. Guantanamo, Iraq, secret prisons, illegal torture, illegal wiretapping all ruined that. Without respect, alliances mean nothing. Without respect, the US cannot achieve its aims abroad. Europe, from what I can tell, is willing to help us again because of the prospect of the US returning to the rule of law. Terrorists are confused, because if the Great Satan respects the law, how are they evil?
Now onto your points.
Forced unionism.
Obama has yet to pick a Sec. Labor. With this economic crisis and huge job losses, Labor could be important. His economic team is fleshed out and not one major pro-labor person on it (his team is really quite centrist overall).
Further, what is bad about unions? In Denmark, Norway, and Sweden there is an agreement between the LO (their version of the AFL-CIO) and the employer federation (think something roughly equivalent to the Board of Commerce). This agreement set up an arbitration court for labor and employer to work out differences without having to resort to strikes and lockouts (thus you generally don't hear about things like air-traffic controller strike because they largely don't exist). It recognizes the power of collective bargaining on both sides. It works best in Denmark, but a recent example is in Sweden, where employers agreed to increase wages by 7% over 2 years. Sweden has no minimum wage because of agreements like this.
The unions realize that they are part of the economy, and work to ensure that its members are productive and aren't scamming the system. Union membership isn't forced, but is still extremely high.
I should also mention that Denmark and Sweden, with their high percentage of unionized labor, are the 3rd and 4th most competitive economies in the world, respectively. Only the US (1) and Switzerland (2) beat them. Little to no disruption of production is good for the economy, as Boeing is right now painfully learning. They lost millions due to a strike by their union. But what if there was a system like that in Scandinavia? Might have still happened, but less likely.
The important thing to take away from this is that unions and these agreements are actually good for capitalist economies if done right. Screaming communism doesn't help anybody, because nobody is looking to implement communism.
Socialized medicine
Ask GM. And Ford. And Chrysler. Is this a good thing for their busienss? Unequivically yes. Part of the reason why they can't compete with foreign auto-makers is because no other foreign auto-maker has to pay for the health insurance of its employees and retirees. Which means a greater margin.
It's unlikely that we'll implement a single-payer health care system, but there are numerous benefits to it. First, insurance is cheaper the greater the number of people paying into it. That's why small companies have difficultly being able to afford health care for their employees. They just don't employ enough people to make it cheap enough. So what would happen if you had every tax payer pay into a health care system? Overall, it would be cheaper for each person. Second, about choice. Under our current system, you do have a choice. You can pick a doctor who's part of the plan or you can pick a doctor outside of your plan, which will cost you a lot more and negates the point of insurance. The third option is to pick a different plan, but unless you're wealthy, can you really afford a plan not offered by the company you work for? Under a single-payer system, all the doctors in the country would be a part of the health care, and you don't have to worry about going outside your coverage. Third, a single-payer system would also help drive down the total cost of health care. Currently, the US spends more money on health care per person than anyone else in the world, and we do not have the best health (or health care) in the world. Why are we throwing away our money if a system like the British or Canadian has shown that its cheaper and more effective? How can you be a fiscal conservative and advocate the less inefficient method?
Weaker smaller military
Obama has already said that he wants to increase the number of personell in the military. And with Iraq and Afghanistan still going on, it's unlikely that he will try to decrease the size of the military and strain ourselves even more. That said, there are more effecient ways to solve problems than to spend billions of dollars blowing things up and killing people. Let's use some of that money in investments in the US to actually help us instead of kill others, and let's use our diplomacy for a change.
Paramilitary civilian government controlled services required upon every young person
From change.gov:
Obama and Biden will call on citizens of all ages to serve. They'll set a goal that all middle school and high school students engage in 50 hours of community service a year, and develop a plan for all college students who engage in 100 hours of community service to receive a fully-refundable tax credit of $4,000 for their education. Obama and Biden will encourage retiring Americans to serve by improving programs available for individuals over age 55, while at the same time promoting youth programs such as Youth Build and Head Start.
It's a work in progress, but just what is wrong with asking Americans to serve their country in ways outside of the military? If you want people to have in interest in the country, what better way than to give them a direct link to it? The arguments I've seen against this so far essentially say that this takes away power from the church and would indoctrinate these people with what the government wants them to think. As to indoctrination, that's what churches do to begin with.
Besides, organizations like the Peace Corps have done a tremendous amount of good for the world and our country.
So called (miss called) Fairness Doctrine essentially eliminating right wing talk shows in the media, highly expanding what is regarded as hate speech.
The Fairness Doctrine was eliminated in 1987. It required broadcasters to air controversial issues of public interest honestly, balanced, and equitable. It says nothing about hate speech. Further, from June 2008:
"{Obama} does not support reimposing the Fairness Doctrine on broadcasters," but that he "considers this debate to be a distraction from the conversation we should be having about opening up the airwaves and modern communications to as many diverse viewpoints as possible," adding, "That is why Sen. Obama supports media-ownership caps, network neutrality, public broadcasting, as well as increasing minority ownership of broadcasting and print outlets."
FCC fairness doctrine - Wikipedia
A non-issue, really.
I'll do the next 5 later.
Oh, and yeah, I was one of those who helped turn Colorado blue.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Buzsaw, posted 11-05-2008 9:07 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by subbie, posted 11-27-2008 12:07 PM kuresu has not replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 247 of 341 (489467)
11-27-2008 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by Buzsaw
11-25-2008 7:53 PM


Buzsaw writes:
quote:
It was not socialized medicine any more than a health benefit package in government or private package today.
Then why do you call it "socialized medicine" when we try to extend it to everyone?
Back in the 90s, when the VA system was fully funded, it was some of the best healthcare in the country.
Medicare has an overhead expenditure of about 2% compared to more than 20% for private insurance.
The examples of government-sponsored, single-payer, universal coverage insurance that we have in this country are the most efficient, best care systems that we have. Why on earth would we wish to deny that to the rest of the citizenry?
Oh, that's right..."SOCIALIZED MEDICINE!" Better to spend more and get worse care then dare have anything that might be considered "socialism."

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Buzsaw, posted 11-25-2008 7:53 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
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subbie
Member (Idle past 1273 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 248 of 341 (489469)
11-27-2008 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by kuresu
11-27-2008 5:33 AM


quote:
It's a work in progress, but just what is wrong with asking Americans to serve their country in ways outside of the military? If you want people to have in interest in the country, what better way than to give them a direct link to it? The arguments I've seen against this so far essentially say that this takes away power from the church and would indoctrinate these people with what the government wants them to think. As to indoctrination, that's what churches do to begin with.
When I first read the "America Serves" section, it proposed requiring a certain level of governmental service of all young people. I am quite pleased to see that the plan has been modified to simply encourage such service. I certainly would have opposed any plan to require service of anyone, and not because it took power away from churches.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 249 of 341 (489482)
11-27-2008 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by Rrhain
11-27-2008 11:49 AM


Re: Socialized Medicine
Socialized medicine is government mandated and taxpayer financed restrctively dispensed on all citizens whether they want it or not. It eliminates alternative options and empowers government to dictate such things as imunizations, choice of practitioners and type of treatments etc.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by Rrhain, posted 11-27-2008 11:49 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by kuresu, posted 11-27-2008 6:08 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 251 by Straggler, posted 11-27-2008 6:31 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 256 by Rrhain, posted 11-29-2008 5:01 PM Buzsaw has not replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2531 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 250 of 341 (489483)
11-27-2008 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Buzsaw
11-27-2008 5:48 PM


Re: Socialized Medicine
Why does the system have to be exactly as you say it will be?
It eliminates alternative options
Well, no. All doctors would be under the plan. Unless you mean alt. medicine, which more often than not is kooky. I know your history with it, and you're convinced that doctors scam us for the profit motive. Take away the profit motive, no reason to scam us.
By the way, health insurance effectively eliminates choice as it is because getting treatment out-of-network is generally prohibitively expensive.
empowers government to dictate such things as imunizations
This already exists. Without a socialized health care system, we already have mandated immunizations with very few ways out. So you're fighting the wrong battle.
choice of practitioners
Well, since all doctors would be part of the system, this isn't too much of a concern, now is it?
type of treatments
Well, health insurance already does this by refusing to cover certain treatments, so again, you're fighting the wrong battle.
Isn't it funny that all of your problems with socialized medicine already exist in the US? So perhaps the problem isn't socialized medicine, but the health care system as it stands?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Buzsaw, posted 11-27-2008 5:48 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Buzsaw, posted 11-29-2008 10:33 PM kuresu has replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 251 of 341 (489485)
11-27-2008 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Buzsaw
11-27-2008 5:48 PM


Re: Socialized Medicine
Socialized medicine is government mandated and taxpayer financed restrctively dispensed on all citizens whether they want it or not. It eliminates alternative options and empowers government to dictate such things as imunizations, choice of practitioners and type of treatments etc.
When you are seriously ill the last thing on your mind is choice and options. What is needed is care without regard for cost.
No system is perfect.
I have a father who has had bowel cancer in the last year or so. I have also got elderly grandparents (both 85+) who have various conditions. I also have a 2 year old son who has had a few normal but worrying medical episodes.
The treatment, home help and support that these family members have received in the last two years has surpassed anything I would have expected of any health system in the world.
My father is now basically well but undergoing various preventative treatments. My grandparents receive daily home help and care. The aim of the health system seems to be to facilitate their independent lives in their family home with as much self sufficiancy as possible. My son has been immunised against all major world diseases and various child health care voluntary programmes attended. All of this is on ths NHS.
If me and my family had to pay for this we would be bankrupt.
I personally cost the British NHS all but nothing. I, as a top tax payer, probably pay far more than my own individual health costs would currently warrant. But I do not begrudge a single penny of this and as a wider family member the National Health service has saved me and my kin from financial and health related devastation.
I really do not understand the US right wing opposition to non-private health care.
Insurance companies are bastards at the best of times. When people are at their physical, mental and financial weakest the very last thing that they need is the administrative and beauracratic nightmare of private insurance.
Infinitely better a system that delivers health care based purely on need with no regard for individual ability to pay. IMHO.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 253 by kuresu, posted 11-27-2008 7:33 PM Straggler has not replied
 Message 257 by Rrhain, posted 11-29-2008 5:10 PM Straggler has not replied
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DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 252 of 341 (489486)
11-27-2008 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by Straggler
11-27-2008 6:31 PM


Re: Socialized Medicine
If me and my family had to pay for this we would be bankrupt.
I'm in a similar situation. I've had 4 cornea transplant operations and over the last 10 years have seen the top cornea doctor in the province on average once a month, without evil socialized healthcare I'd be blind and/or broke.

soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Straggler, posted 11-27-2008 6:31 PM Straggler has not replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2531 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 253 of 341 (489488)
11-27-2008 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by Straggler
11-27-2008 6:31 PM


Re: Socialized Medicine
I really do not understand the US right wing opposition to non-private health care
To be cynical, it's about political power. They're afraid if it passes people will see how great it is compared to what previously was and vote democrat.
To be further cynical, what's the point of being wealthy if you can't see people suffer while you get the best care available?
The resistance to a system like the NHS is quite frankly irrational and a byproduct of our love affair with capitalism, or put more accurately, our propaganda induced zeolous hatred of all things "red". McCarthyism survives.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Straggler, posted 11-27-2008 6:31 PM Straggler has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by onifre, posted 11-27-2008 7:40 PM kuresu has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2969 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 254 of 341 (489489)
11-27-2008 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by kuresu
11-27-2008 7:33 PM


Re: Socialized Medicine
To be further cynical, what's the point of being wealthy if you can't see people suffer while you get the best care available?
And you said I was too much? lol
Good post, I couldn't agree more with your cynicism.
Also, lets not over look the fact that health care doesn't affect the wealthy, so why would they care? In fact, they profit from it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by kuresu, posted 11-27-2008 7:33 PM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by kuresu, posted 11-28-2008 3:30 AM onifre has replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2531 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 255 of 341 (489547)
11-28-2008 3:30 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by onifre
11-27-2008 7:40 PM


Re: Socialized Medicine
I would take that statement with a grain of salt, as it's simply an extreme version of the attitude of why work if you'll never be able to show you're better?
A little something called hyperbole.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by onifre, posted 11-27-2008 7:40 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by onifre, posted 11-30-2008 5:05 PM kuresu has not replied

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