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Author Topic:   Anything Divine in the Bible?
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 5 of 406 (489505)
11-27-2008 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Nighttrain
11-27-2008 2:39 AM


sometimes, Gods wisdom is not easily recognizable in the scriptures but if you think about it, you can see it
for instance, according to the Mosaic Law, a woman was considered unclean for seven days during normal menstruation. If her menstrual impurity came to be upon a man lying down with her (as when, unwittingly, a husband had sexual relations with his wife at the beginning of menstruation), he was rendered unclean for seven days, and the bed upon which he might lie down was considered unclean.
Le 15:19-30
it might cause one to think that this law is unreasonable and a little discriminatory against women
but if you consider the times in which it was written... a patriachal society where men were the dominant rulers and women bought and sold like slaves... and often viewed as of little account in the eyes of men
a woman could not refuse to have sex with her hasband or owner for instance and he could demand it whenever he wanted. If you are a woman you would know that the menstrual cycle can be accompanied by much discomfort and even pain...so this law was a Godsend!
it was the only time that a woman could legally & rightfully deny his request for sexual intercourse and he would oblige

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Nighttrain, posted 11-27-2008 2:39 AM Nighttrain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Nighttrain, posted 11-27-2008 11:02 PM Peg has not replied
 Message 8 by subbie, posted 11-27-2008 11:08 PM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 9 of 406 (489516)
11-27-2008 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by subbie
11-27-2008 11:08 PM


well we do live independent from God, he's not really ruling people is he? Under his rule, things would be very different and violence and domination would not have entered into the picture
the reality is that man has been ruling himself and man has ruled the way he wants to... seeing men are are the dominant, its only logical that women would have come under their thumb
but we cant blame God for this predicament. Adam and Eve chose independence all on their own and we clearly have seen the results

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by subbie, posted 11-27-2008 11:08 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by subbie, posted 11-27-2008 11:15 PM Peg has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 11 of 406 (489536)
11-28-2008 1:31 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by subbie
11-27-2008 11:08 PM


subbie writes:
So god, in his infinite wisdom, refused to prohibit men from treating women like cattle
read the mosaic law and you'll see that human rights and respect/care for the individual is at the forefront and yes, treating anyone like cattle was condemned
violence in all its forms is condemned, even against animals
even the human rights of slaves are upheld in that every 7 years they were to be set free. Exodus 21.2“In case you should buy a Hebrew slave, he will be a slave six years, but in the seventh he will go out as one set free without charge.
the mosaic law is an insight into the mind of God
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by subbie, posted 11-27-2008 11:08 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by subbie, posted 11-28-2008 10:48 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 14 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 11-28-2008 11:49 AM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 15 of 406 (489619)
11-28-2008 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by DevilsAdvocate
11-28-2008 11:49 AM


Re: Mosaic Law is derived from ancient Babylonnian and Sumerian Codes of Law
devilsadvocate writes:
Can you back that up from scripture from the Pentateuch? Israelites were commanded to treat their fellow Israelites kindly but this was not expected for their foreign slaves.
How about this one:
Exodus 21:20-21 NASB writes:
20 If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished.
21 If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property.
God does not control mans actions. he cannot stop 1 person hitting another, but these verses at least show that he does not approve of it
devilsadvocate writes:
This only applies to Israelites who become indentured servants to other Israelites. This does not apply to non-Hebrew slaves
devilsadvocate writes:
Does that mean that God also wrote the Code of Hammurabi. Scholars believe Hammurabi to be the first king of the Babylonian Empire and his reign is accurately dated to the 17th century BC.
Hammurabi’s code has notable differences to the mosaic law. It does not set out principles like the mosaic law for instance, opting for straight out rules and punishments. There existed in Hammurabi’s code a “sympathetic” punishment. One of the rules states: “If [a builder] has caused the son of the owner of the house to die [because the house is faulty and collapses], one shall put to death the son of that builder.” God’s law through Moses, to the contrary, stated: “Fathers should not be put to death on account of children, and children should not be put to death on account of fathers.” (De 24:16)
so there are stark contrasts between the two. Perhaps the similarities are there because of the culture and the times that these documents were written... they were almost contemporaries of each other.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 11-28-2008 11:49 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 11-28-2008 10:41 PM Peg has replied
 Message 17 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 11-29-2008 10:28 AM Peg has replied
 Message 20 by Brian, posted 11-30-2008 6:00 AM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 18 of 406 (489804)
11-30-2008 4:44 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by DevilsAdvocate
11-28-2008 10:41 PM


Re: Mosaic Law is derived from ancient Babylonnian and Sumerian Codes of Law
DevisAdvocate writes:
Why is it so difficult to see how Mosaic law derived from the of ancient Sumerian laws passed down from generation to generation from the time Abraham left Ur of the Chaldeas i.e. Sumeria.
because not only were they completely different nations, they served completely different Gods and there is also no proof that moses copied from Babylonian laws
moses didnt live in Babylon, nor did he ever live there... he was born and bred in egypt and then spent 40 years in the desert regions of Midian before returning to Egypt again to free the hebrews from slavery
the miracles Moses was able to perform where given him by the Creator, whom also inspired and directed his writings including the Mosaic laws
hence, because of these facts, its most illogical to assume that he took the laws from the babylonians

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 11-28-2008 10:41 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 11-30-2008 4:18 PM Peg has not replied
 Message 22 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 11-30-2008 4:24 PM Peg has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 19 of 406 (489807)
11-30-2008 5:04 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by DevilsAdvocate
11-29-2008 10:28 AM


Re: Mosaic Law is derived from ancient Babylonnian and Sumerian Codes of Law
DevilsAdvocate writes:
Yaweh deliberately killed the child of David as a result of David's actions as seen here:
the scriptures dont really say that God killed the child. David had lived for years with Gods protection...God saved him from hunger and near death experiences on many occasions. But at this time in Davids life he wasnt really acting as he should. He killed a good man to hide his adulterous affair with the mans wife and because of this God removed his protection from David and yes, the child died not because God killed it, but because it had no divine protection.
in those other scriptures you quote, its not really fair to condemn God for fighting against his enemies or killing them. He knew the circumstances, we may not.
You may recall the account in Jonah about his visit to the Ninevite city. That city had been condemned to death and God had sent Jonah in to tell them in advance...when the whole city pleaded for mercy, God gave it to them and turn away from destroying them.
So he is obviously fair, and mets out punishment only in circumstances that warrant it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 11-29-2008 10:28 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 11-30-2008 4:30 PM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 25 of 406 (489929)
11-30-2008 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Brian
11-30-2008 6:00 AM


Re: read again
Its no good blaming God for the actions of people.
he sees the way people behave, but he does not try to control them
if he did, then we wouldnt behave the way we do.
a fatal stike was much worse then a non fatal strike, and the fatal strike warranted punishment... it was a deterrent against such conduct and shows that God disapproves
the fact that a non fatal strike did not warrant punishment shows that God makes allowances for our imperfection and our tendency to do wrong
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

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 Message 20 by Brian, posted 11-30-2008 6:00 AM Brian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by subbie, posted 11-30-2008 10:46 PM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 27 of 406 (489933)
11-30-2008 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by DevilsAdvocate
11-30-2008 4:30 PM


Re: Mosaic Law is derived from ancient Babylonnian and Sumerian Codes of Law
you have interpreted the scripture yourself anyway lol
sure, if you read only parts of the bible that reference punishment and retribution, you could easily come to the conclusion you have
but there is so much more in terms of forgiveness & mercy on Gods part to a rebellious and outright nasty people ... if you read them, you'd think that God was more a pacifist then an evil child killer
but anyway, seeing you dont believe, why do you bother debating the semantics of the bible???

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 11-30-2008 4:30 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 28 of 406 (489934)
11-30-2008 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by subbie
11-30-2008 10:46 PM


Re: read again
no,
it shows that he does not control human actions
besides, in those days slavery was being employed. People were selling themselves into slavery in order to have work and the necessities of life, so why would he condemn it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by subbie, posted 11-30-2008 10:46 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by subbie, posted 11-30-2008 10:58 PM Peg has replied
 Message 39 by Brian, posted 12-01-2008 6:33 AM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 30 of 406 (489940)
11-30-2008 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by subbie
11-30-2008 10:58 PM


Re: read again
Joseph was a slave in egypt, and he was the 3rd highest ruler in the land
the original words also mean a 'servant' or one who pays tributes to a king, or one who holds a position beneath someone else
sadly our understanding of 'slave' comes from that dreadful history of the slave trade... but for many ancient people, being a slave was not as terrible as it was for the black africans in america

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by subbie, posted 11-30-2008 10:58 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by subbie, posted 11-30-2008 11:10 PM Peg has replied
 Message 36 by anglagard, posted 12-01-2008 12:42 AM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 32 of 406 (489951)
11-30-2008 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by subbie
11-30-2008 11:10 PM


Re: read again
i dont like getting into pointless debates
these arguments can go around and around forever and in the end we each stick to our own conclusions anyway

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by subbie, posted 11-30-2008 11:10 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by subbie, posted 11-30-2008 11:46 PM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 34 of 406 (489955)
11-30-2008 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by subbie
11-30-2008 11:46 PM


Re: read again
everyone does that
even you my dear

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by subbie, posted 11-30-2008 11:46 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 37 of 406 (489967)
12-01-2008 1:40 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by anglagard
12-01-2008 12:42 AM


Re: read again
some people back then obviously chose to be slaves, so it must not have been as bad as it seems... You are talking like slavery was torture when quite obviously it wasnt.
i did mention that the hebrew word also denotes a 'servant' Even in our world today we go to an employer and request to go into service for them in exchange for money
Yes, some slaves were mistreated, thats obvious seeing there were laws in place that restricted how much punishment could be given... and if it went beyond what was considered reasonable, then the slave owner would himself be punished
I still see human rights being upheld in the mosaic law... i doubt very much that slaves of other nations received the same concessions

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 Message 36 by anglagard, posted 12-01-2008 12:42 AM anglagard has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-01-2008 5:59 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 46 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-01-2008 3:19 PM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 40 of 406 (489984)
12-01-2008 6:41 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Brian
12-01-2008 6:33 AM


Re: read again
hence why he sent his son to redeem mankind i guess

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Brian, posted 12-01-2008 6:33 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Brian, posted 12-01-2008 8:34 AM Peg has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 55 of 406 (490062)
12-02-2008 2:25 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by DevilsAdvocate
12-01-2008 3:19 PM


Re: read again
DevilsAdvocate writes:
Also if slavery is such a blessing why don't you come and be my slave for free. I could use some slave labor. I need my deck stained and my garage reorganized.
look them up in the business directory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-01-2008 3:19 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-02-2008 7:39 AM Peg has replied

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