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Author Topic:   Anything Divine in the Bible?
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 2159 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 1 of 406 (489439)
11-27-2008 2:39 AM


2 Tim 3:16 tells us that all scripture is inspired of God. Now inspiration has been stretched to mean dictate, encourage, to breathe, arouse, etc., etc. Whatever the meaning, scripture should contain divine wisdom. Have you ever had the hairs on the back of your head erect from one of these pearls? I used to think 'turn the other cheek' conveyed a great depth of wisdom till I realised masochists had probably been doing it for millenia. So the question is 'have you found a spine-tingler in the bible?' What line, phrase, verse seemed closest to divine? Folk wisdom doesn`t count.
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Message 2 of 406 (489447)
11-27-2008 9:36 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
  
Coragyps
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Message 3 of 406 (489450)
11-27-2008 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Nighttrain
11-27-2008 2:39 AM


Genesis Chapter 1 read by Jerry Ketchum at Easter Eve, with the smell of incense around, did it for me. But then Jerry could probably have read a Polish telephone directory with enough dramatic skill to have given a couple of goosebumps. In other words, the presentation and context count for more that the words. The same applies with "he gave his back to the smiters, and his cheeks to those that plucked out the hair" if 1) read or 2) put to music by Mr Handel.
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iano
Member (Idle past 106 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 4 of 406 (489452)
11-27-2008 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Nighttrain
11-27-2008 2:39 AM


Close. Cigar and all.
The staggering depth to which my salvation reaches is an ongoing source of spine-tingling. Two central planks, which are tied in together.

Ephesians 1:4/5 talks about what is (pre)destined to occur to those who are saved. The thing which causes my heart to thump-thump is the promise that I will be made holy (and thus, pleasing to God). This aspect of salvation: being made holy, is a drum-beat message of the Bible, so the Ephesians example is but a single reference.

To be holy means I will be finally and completely free from the influence and reach of sin - completely outside it's grasp. I won't be capable anymore of being: selfish, unkind, jealous (of the green eyed monster variety), a liar, proud (of the self-serving variety), greedy, arrogant, uncharitable, mean-spirited, slothful, etc., etc., etc.

Allied with the above, the thing that causes the greatest excitement to well-up in me would be described by the likes of Matthew 5:8 and 1 John 3:2

quote:
5:8Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.

quote:
2Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears,we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

To see God from a position of holiness is to see God in the only way I'd want to see him. What could that be like: to spend eternity with the person capable of creating the heavens and the earth and all in it - fallen and all though it is. There could be nothing to beat that. Just nothing. I can barely wait..

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


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Peg
Member (Idle past 3095 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 5 of 406 (489505)
11-27-2008 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Nighttrain
11-27-2008 2:39 AM


sometimes, Gods wisdom is not easily recognizable in the scriptures but if you think about it, you can see it

for instance, according to the Mosaic Law, a woman was considered unclean for seven days during normal menstruation. If her menstrual impurity came to be upon a man lying down with her (as when, unwittingly, a husband had sexual relations with his wife at the beginning of menstruation), he was rendered unclean for seven days, and the bed upon which he might lie down was considered unclean.
Le 15:19-30

it might cause one to think that this law is unreasonable and a little discriminatory against women

but if you consider the times in which it was written... a patriachal society where men were the dominant rulers and women bought and sold like slaves... and often viewed as of little account in the eyes of men

a woman could not refuse to have sex with her hasband or owner for instance and he could demand it whenever he wanted. If you are a woman you would know that the menstrual cycle can be accompanied by much discomfort and even pain...so this law was a Godsend!

it was the only time that a woman could legally & rightfully deny his request for sexual intercourse and he would oblige


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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 2159 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 6 of 406 (489512)
11-27-2008 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by iano
11-27-2008 9:58 AM


Re: Close. Cigar and all.
Ding! Sorry, Iano, no cigar. All you are doing is extrapolating from words. No divine wisdom there.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by iano, posted 11-27-2008 9:58 AM iano has responded

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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 2159 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 7 of 406 (489513)
11-27-2008 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Peg
11-27-2008 10:10 PM


Ding! Sorry, Peg (welcome, btw), no-um-new shoes. Common sense folk wisdom.
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subbie
Member
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 8 of 406 (489515)
11-27-2008 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Peg
11-27-2008 10:10 PM


So god, in his infinite wisdom, refused to prohibit men from treating women like cattle, instead tossing them a bone by giving them 7 days a month off from sex.

Wow, what a guy! A truly heartwarming effort on his part.

This may be an all time high (or low, depending on one's perspective) in rationalization. Whatever it is, it isn't divine.


Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat


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Peg
Member (Idle past 3095 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 9 of 406 (489516)
11-27-2008 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by subbie
11-27-2008 11:08 PM


well we do live independent from God, he's not really ruling people is he? Under his rule, things would be very different and violence and domination would not have entered into the picture

the reality is that man has been ruling himself and man has ruled the way he wants to... seeing men are are the dominant, its only logical that women would have come under their thumb

but we cant blame God for this predicament. Adam and Eve chose independence all on their own and we clearly have seen the results


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subbie
Member
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 10 of 406 (489518)
11-27-2008 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Peg
11-27-2008 11:12 PM


Yes, of course. Humans are flawed because of the choice that Adam and Eve made 6,000 some years ago, and god wrote the bible, not to correct our flaws and tell us how we should live, but to enable our wickedness and make it a bit easier on women 7 days out of each month.

Makes perfect sense.


Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat


This message is a reply to:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 3095 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 11 of 406 (489536)
11-28-2008 1:31 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by subbie
11-27-2008 11:08 PM


subbie writes:

So god, in his infinite wisdom, refused to prohibit men from treating women like cattle

read the mosaic law and you'll see that human rights and respect/care for the individual is at the forefront and yes, treating anyone like cattle was condemned

violence in all its forms is condemned, even against animals

even the human rights of slaves are upheld in that every 7 years they were to be set free. Exodus 21.2 “In case you should buy a Hebrew slave, he will be a slave six years, but in the seventh he will go out as one set free without charge.

the mosaic law is an insight into the mind of God

Edited by Peg, : No reason given.


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iano
Member (Idle past 106 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 12 of 406 (489549)
11-28-2008 5:29 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Nighttrain
11-27-2008 11:00 PM


Re: Close. Cigar and all.
Oh, I see what you mean. In that case: 1 Corinthians 2:14 contains an invaluable piece of divine wisdom - especially applicable for the evangelist.

14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

If one didn't understand that people can't actually understand the things of God they could get frustrated in their trying to explain it to them again and again. "But it's a plain as the nose on your face..." (perhaps some evolutionists here, after years of dealing with creationists can 'amen' that?)

Reminds me of the story of William Wilberforce taking his good friend William Pitt, the non-believing Prime Minster of England of the day, to hear a Christian service. The man speaking was somebody Wilberforce was particularly impressed by. Sure enough, the preacher was on fire that evening and Wilberforce could hardly contain his excitment as gospel truth after gospel truth poured forth - as if custom designed for Pitt. Leaving the service Pitt turns to Wilberforce and says "You know William - I didn't understand a single thing that man said all evening"

You'd be crushed by this kind of thing. Were it not for the wisdom of 1 Cor 2:14.

Then there is this not-insignificant verse

1 John 5:19 writes:

We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

The consequences of this sat amongst the first earth-shattering realisations that dawned on me on becoming a Christian.

Before that I looked on all the trouble in the world and figured it to be the result of disparate, often complex causes. The war here, the famine there, the drug addiction all over, etc. And all over, people and governments were trying to fix things, to stem the misery with policies employed at this, money thrown at that, programme supporting the other..

But the world lies under the control of satan, and all the trouble and strife could be traced back to his machinations. The evolved misery and suffering has a common ancestor. And he wasn't going away until the end of it all.

So rather than despair at the state of the world I understood that the world was operating precisely as it could be expected to be operating. I was free of the need to build up hopes in an Obama-dawn. Or place my trust in the burgeoning economy. Or wishful-think my way to the notion of increasing harmony between man and man. The world has been this way since forever and will be this way until the day it's wrapped up like a garment.

In the measure I retain this wisdom, I am rendered free from dependance upon the world for my contentment. My view shouldn't be mistaken as fatalistic - it's full of hope for the world as it shall be. You can't be fatalistic about something that isn't intended to be a success.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Edited by iano, : insert the word "divine" in first sentence


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subbie
Member
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 13 of 406 (489580)
11-28-2008 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Peg
11-28-2008 1:31 AM


Men get to take women sexually anytime they want, except that women get a week off once a month. Endorsing slavery, but only six years at a time. Wow, this god guy was a prince among men, wasn't he?


Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Peg, posted 11-28-2008 1:31 AM Peg has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1267 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 14 of 406 (489590)
11-28-2008 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Peg
11-28-2008 1:31 AM


Mosaic Law is derived from ancient Babylonnian and Sumerian Codes of Law
read the mosaic law and you'll see that human rights and respect/care for the individual is at the forefront and yes, treating anyone like cattle was condemned

Can you back that up from scripture from the Pentateuch? Israelites were commanded to treat their fellow Israelites kindly but this was not expected for their foreign slaves.

How about this one:

Exodus 21:20-21 NASB writes:

20 If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished.

21 If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property.

violence in all its forms is condemned, even against animals

even the human rights of slaves are upheld in that every 7 years they were to be set free. Exodus 21.2 “In case you should buy a Hebrew slave, he will be a slave six years, but in the seventh he will go out as one set free without charge.

This only applies to Israelites who become indentured servants to other Israelites. This does not apply to non-Hebrew slaves as seen here:

Leviticus 25:39-46 NASB writes:

39 If a countryman of yours becomes so poor with regard to you that he sells himself to you, you shall not subject him to a slave's service.

40 He shall be with you as a hired man, as if he were a sojourner; he shall serve with you until the year of jubilee.

41 He shall then go out from you, he and his sons with him, and shall go back to his family, that he may return to the property of his forefathers.

42 For they are My servants whom I brought out from the land of Egypt; they are not to be sold in a slave sale.

43 You shall not rule over him with severity, but are to revere your God.

44 As for your male and female slaves whom you may have--you may acquire male and female slaves from the pagan nations that are around you.

45 Then, too, it is out of the sons of the sojourners who live as aliens among you that you may gain acquisition, and out of their families who are with you, whom they will have produced in your land; they also may become your possession.

46 You may even bequeath them to your sons after you, to receive as a possession; you can use them as permanent slaves. (AC)But in respect to your countrymen, the sons of Israel, you shall not rule with severity over one another.

the mosaic law is an insight into the mind of God

Does that mean that God also wrote the Code of Hammurabi. Scholars believe Hammurabi to be the first king of the Babylonian Empire and his reign is accurately dated to the 17th century BC. The stories of Moses life date to to the 14th and 13th century BC at the latest.

Here are some eerily familiar slavery laws present in Hammurabi's Code of Laws:

Code of Hammurabi writes:

If a man has caught either a male or female runaway slave in the open field and has brought him back to his owner, the owner of the slave shall give him two shekels of silver.

If such a slave will not name his owner, his captor shall bring him to the palace, where he shall be examined as to his past and returned to his owner.

If a man's wife, living in her husband's house, has persisted in going out, has acted the fool, has wasted her house, has belittled her husband, he shall prosecute her. If her husband has said, "I divorce her," she shall go her way; he shall give her nothing as her price of divorce. If her husband has said, "I will not divorce her," he may take another woman to wife; the wife shall live as a slave in her husband's house.

If a slave of anyone has smitten the privates of a free-born man, his ear shall be cut off.

If a surgeon has operated with the bronze lancet on a patrician for a serious injury, and has cured him, or has removed with a bronze lancet a cataract for a patrician, and has cured his eye, he shall take ten shekels of silver.

If it be a man's slave, the owner of the slave shall give two shekels of silver to the surgeon.

If the surgeon has treated a serious injury of a plebeian's slave, with the bronze lancet, and has caused his death, he shall render slave for slave.

If he has removed a cataract with the bronze lancet, and made the slave lose his eye, he shall pay half his value.

If a man, in a foreign land, has bought a male, or female, slave of another, and if when he has come home the owner of the male or female slave has recognized his slave, and if the slave be a native of the land, he shall grant him liberty without money.

If the slave was a native of another country, the buyer shall declare on oath the amount of money he paid, and the owner of the slave shall repay the merchant what he paid and keep his slave.

Compare to the Mosaic Law:

Exodus 21:20-21 writes:

20 If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished.

21 If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property.

Exodus 21:26-27 writes:

26 If a man strikes the eye of his male or female slave, and destroys it, he shall let him go free on account of his eye.

27 And if he knocks out a tooth of his male or female slave, he shall let him go free on account of his tooth.

Do you really see any difference here? Both slaves are treated like property i.e. cattle and thus have monetary value. There is no difference between your Mosaic law and Babylonian law. They both have the same "eye for an eye" type of jurisprudence. They are one in the same. And because Moses came later than Hammurabi, Mosaic law IS derived from ancient Babylonian and Sumerian laws.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.


For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan
This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Peg, posted 11-28-2008 1:31 AM Peg has responded

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 Message 15 by Peg, posted 11-28-2008 5:02 PM DevilsAdvocate has responded

Peg
Member (Idle past 3095 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 15 of 406 (489619)
11-28-2008 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by DevilsAdvocate
11-28-2008 11:49 AM


Re: Mosaic Law is derived from ancient Babylonnian and Sumerian Codes of Law
devilsadvocate writes:

Can you back that up from scripture from the Pentateuch? Israelites were commanded to treat their fellow Israelites kindly but this was not expected for their foreign slaves.
How about this one:
Exodus 21:20-21 NASB writes:
20 If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished.
21 If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property.

God does not control mans actions. he cannot stop 1 person hitting another, but these verses at least show that he does not approve of it

devilsadvocate writes:

This only applies to Israelites who become indentured servants to other Israelites. This does not apply to non-Hebrew slaves

devilsadvocate writes:

Does that mean that God also wrote the Code of Hammurabi. Scholars believe Hammurabi to be the first king of the Babylonian Empire and his reign is accurately dated to the 17th century BC.

Hammurabi’s code has notable differences to the mosaic law. It does not set out principles like the mosaic law for instance, opting for straight out rules and punishments. There existed in Hammurabi’s code a “sympathetic” punishment. One of the rules states: “If [a builder] has caused the son of the owner of the house to die [because the house is faulty and collapses], one shall put to death the son of that builder.” God’s law through Moses, to the contrary, stated: “Fathers should not be put to death on account of children, and children should not be put to death on account of fathers.” (De 24:16)

so there are stark contrasts between the two. Perhaps the similarities are there because of the culture and the times that these documents were written... they were almost contemporaries of each other.


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