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Author Topic:   COSMOLOGY
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 106 of 159 (489569)
11-28-2008 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by V-Bird
11-28-2008 7:37 AM


Re: Disclaimer... re: Epansion/Inflation
You are correct, the internal ramping of energies is the clue to how the cusp operates, the cusp is similar to a huge accelerator, where on earth we find greater and greater energies as we tear apart the smallest items, it is this that allows for perpetual expansion and the perpetual production of energy from what appears to be a finite amount.

Can you please explain this cusp to me. A cusp mathematically speaking is a point where two inverted curved line meet. I guess cosmologically speaking this would be a singularity, where space becomes infinitely dense and time is 0. Is this correct? Again we need to define terms first. Otherwise it is what cavediver states a "word salad" of meaningless terms.


For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by V-Bird, posted 11-28-2008 7:37 AM V-Bird has responded

Replies to this message:
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V-Bird
Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 211
From: Great Britain
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 107 of 159 (489584)
11-28-2008 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by DevilsAdvocate
11-28-2008 8:57 AM


Re: cont.
Thankyou, the analogy is there to assist in trying to grasp a fundamentally different cosmos. Analogies cannot make predictions, they are only a way to see the unfamiliar or difficult concept using an everyday object that you may [or may not] extrapolate.

I can't publish as I am far from finished, to do so would be pointless, I use these boards to assess how much flak I will get when I finally do.

I know this much for certain, even with a complete work it will be utterly detested by the vast majority of scientists around the world, it will make a mockery of much of their lifes work, to explain something that someone was searching for was there all the time and they were for so many years blind to it will not go down well.

For almost 20 years we have delved and dug deeper into particle physics, we have buried our heads in the ever smaller particles and not looked up.

I know what you mean about assimilating the FTL cosmos, it is difficult even for me, but in the last year or so I have been able to with increasing ease, I see everyday events and now 'see' it in 'FTL terms.


This message is a reply to:
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V-Bird
Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 211
From: Great Britain
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 108 of 159 (489585)
11-28-2008 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by DevilsAdvocate
11-28-2008 9:47 AM


Re: Disclaimer... re: Epansion/Inflation
I try to use simple English where I can, cusp simply means the point of change, the cusp is the border between the cosmos and the greater universe or void.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 11-28-2008 9:47 AM DevilsAdvocate has not yet responded

  
V-Bird
Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 211
From: Great Britain
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 109 of 159 (489588)
11-28-2008 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by AdminNosy
11-28-2008 9:44 AM


Re: Cluttered thread
Cluttered or not it remains popular and for good reason, I think that the ennui in the other threads is indicative of the state of this particular branch of science, it has reached deep into a cul-de-sac of ever increasing detail in the hope of finding that nugget of gold, but the finer the search the less likely you are to find a nugget as big as gravity.

It's just my opinion, no offence to anyone.

I[we] may be flaky to your eyes and you may be right for all know but us 'flakes' remain polite and never insult anyone or call them names.

Just my observation, no offence to anyone.


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johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3934 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 110 of 159 (489601)
11-28-2008 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by DevilsAdvocate
11-28-2008 9:23 AM


Can you not think for yourself?

Stephen Hawkins quote should be of interest since your all interested in the universe. All the CMB evidence that the earth is the center and that Hawkins himself calls it perhaps the greatest scientific discovery of all time and you go flaky.

Prove Stephen Hawkins wrong lots of scientists are trying but interesting not suceeding, right? etc...

Are you conceeding then that the creationists big bang of the known Cosmos now trumps the one Hubble proposed? That Robert Gentry message in the center is right that the earth is the center by your attacking the messangers like Stephen Hawkins. I personally thought Stephen Hawkins was knowledgeable in this stuff. Now your calling him a quack, interesting?, etc... and the message that he called perhaps the greatest discovery, etc...

P.S. I think you might be placing Hawkins in the axis of evil. right? along with all them creationists that too see the earth in the center of the universe, right? etc...Until you can prove Stephen Hawkins discovery does not link the earth to the center and us a special spot in the universe the Creationist big bang trumps Hubbles big bang theory that shifted the center, right?, etc...

Edited by johnfolton, : No reason given.

Edited by johnfolton, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 11-28-2008 9:23 AM DevilsAdvocate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by rueh, posted 11-28-2008 3:22 PM johnfolton has responded
 Message 115 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 11-28-2008 8:33 PM johnfolton has responded

  
rueh
Member (Idle past 2004 days)
Posts: 382
From: universal city tx
Joined: 03-03-2008


Message 111 of 159 (489610)
11-28-2008 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by johnfolton
11-28-2008 1:32 PM


John, at what point on our orbit of the sun do we appear to be at the center? What I mean by this is. If we were to take a measurement during summer, and our readings indicated that we are at the center of the universe. Then we did the same measurements during winter, when the Earth is at its furthest extreme to the point where we originally measured, and found our readings to indicate that we are at the center of the universe. How could both readings be correct? What about the orbit of our Galaxy? Obviously any measurement we did now would have to wait 110 million years till we could measure again. However, I would happen to guess however that we would still measure Earth as the center. The reason being, that our perception only stretches out so far with the available technology that we have. At some point the photons have yet to reach us because of distance and because of expansion. This would be true no matter where in the universe you measured. It is in essence, the same as when you look at the horizon. No matter where you are on Earth you always perceive yourself as the center of any visual observation of the horizon. That does not mean you are at the center of the Earth. It merely means any position could be said to be the center. Hawkins explains this concept in even his most basic of published works. You are just ignoring the points that do not fit with what you would like to believe.

Edited by rueh, : spelling


'Qui non intelligit, aut taceat, aut discat'
The mind is like a parachute. It only works when it is open.-FZ
The industrial revolution, flipped a bitch on evolution.-NOFX

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by johnfolton, posted 11-28-2008 1:32 PM johnfolton has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by johnfolton, posted 11-28-2008 6:49 PM rueh has responded

  
johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3934 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 112 of 159 (489630)
11-28-2008 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by rueh
11-28-2008 3:22 PM


John, at what point on our orbit of the sun do we appear to be at the center? What I mean by this is. If we were to take a measurement during summer, and our readings indicated that we are at the center of the universe.

Its sure sounds too me that Stephen Hawkins believes the cosmic pattern and alignment is the greatest discovery of the millennium or perhaps all time. right?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Why is the solar system cosmically aligned?
The solar system seems to line up with the largest cosmic features. Is this mere coincidence or a signpost to deeper insights?
By Dragan Huterer

http://www.astronomy.com/asy/default.aspx?c=i&id=450

Cosmic Alignment
With the Cosmic Mind and the Cosmic Pattern
By C. Countess

Interestingly enough, there has been a recent growing interest in a “Cosmic Alignment," that coincides with this one and is scheduled to reach its peak (Dec 21 2012) ushering in great change, for better or worse, depending on ones point of view

Also, the “2006 Nobel Prize in Physics”, was awarded to two physicist for their discovery of a “Cosmic Pattern and Alignment”. World renown physicist "Stephen Hawking" called it, “perhaps the greatest discovery of the millennium or perhaps all time”.

http://www.iuniverse.com/Bookstore/BookDetail.aspx?BookId=SKU-000022361


This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by rueh, posted 11-28-2008 3:22 PM rueh has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by bluescat48, posted 11-28-2008 7:17 PM johnfolton has not yet responded
 Message 121 by rueh, posted 11-28-2008 9:48 PM johnfolton has responded

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2532 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 113 of 159 (489632)
11-28-2008 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by johnfolton
11-28-2008 6:49 PM


What does cosmic alignment have to do with whether the earth is the center of the universe or not. And you didn't answer Reuh's question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by johnfolton, posted 11-28-2008 6:49 PM johnfolton has not yet responded

  
jchardy
Member (Idle past 2743 days)
Posts: 85
Joined: 11-24-2008


Message 114 of 159 (489633)
11-28-2008 7:19 PM


A PLEA TO THE CENTRISTS!
First of all, it is Stephen HawkinG. Not Hawken. But importantly: I am completely puzzled about some of our member’s obsessing about “the earth is the center of the universe”. What possible relevance has that to do with (virtually) anything?
Aside from the fact that I (a Christian) find that laughable, it is also arrogant and unimportant. What is important -- if you are amongst those who believe that mankind is “special” and that our solar system is probably quite unique and tailored more probably on purpose than by chance – is the most important concept. NOT WHERE in the universe we or our planet is located. Only the most uninformed could look at the special circumstances of our Terran system and not recognize it for what it is. Remarkable and a miracle of location; composition; comfort; stability; beauty etc. It would be more worthy to point out all THOSE remarkable circumstances rather than whether the Earth is at the center of the universe! True, other planets (and there may be a number even within our own galaxy as well as elsewhere in this Universe) may be just as “wonderful” as perceived by its occupants. But ultimately isn’t the spiritual meaning of this not in the province of our/their own individual spirituality? Does it have anything to do at all with our search for scientific truth? And doesn’t this continuous bickering interfere with that search? Does anyone actually believe that God (or whomever) would make a centrist location of the Earth the first priority of His goal for mankind? If our search for the scientific truths of cosmology and cosmologic evolution lead us ultimately to accept or reject the role of a Creator, does anyone actually think that the centrist location – if that were so – would be anything other than another (in an enormous number of) improbable miraculous facts which are much easier to establish as so than a centrist location for our remarkable planet? I would plead with everyone to abandon this meaningless argument that “the Earth is the center of the Universe”. It is just silly beyond words! JCHARDY

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DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 115 of 159 (489643)
11-28-2008 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by johnfolton
11-28-2008 1:32 PM


Stephen Hawkins quote should be of interest since your all interested in the universe. All the CMB evidence that the earth is the center and that Hawkins himself calls it perhaps the greatest scientific discovery of all time and you go flaky.

Prove Stephen Hawkins wrong lots of scientists are trying but interesting not succeeding, right? etc...

Your quote mining of Stephen Hawking is an outright lie. What Stephen Hawking was describing is the fact that the COBE satellite gave incontrovertible proof of anisotropies in the cosmic microwave background (CMB) which may show the "hidden" structure of the cosmos. His quote had nothing to do with the earth being the center of the universe.

Here is what is going on here.

#1 You are cutting and pasting from a article called , The Discovery That Dare Not Speak Its Name Has Been Made from the creationist website Science On Your Side who's motto is The Latest Scientific Discoveries Supporting Christian Faith. I could care less except that all this article is doing is trying to interpolate the presence of God from the COBE satellite data which indicates the solar system is supposedly in alignment with the CMB anisotropies as described in a Dec 2007 Astronomy magazine article.

#2 The very publishers of this scientific data have their doubts of its validity as seen here:

WMAP scientist Gary Hinshaw of NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center writes:

There's still a fair bit of controversy about whether there's even something there that needs to be explained

also

Cosmologist Carlo Contaldi of Imperial College London writes:

There is a danger that once people know about the axis of evil, they start seeing evil in all sorts of sets of data

also from New Scientist magazine:

Some astronomers have suggested straightforward explanations for the axis, such as problems with WMAP's instruments or distortions caused by a nearby supercluster.

and

Science News writes:

David Spergel, one of the investigators on the WMAP team and Head of Astrophysics Science at Princeton, is skeptical. "I think the 'axis of evil' in the CMB is much like George Bush's 'axis of evil,' in that if you go into the data looking for something" he says, "you'll find something."... Spergel contends that the hottest spot and the coldest spot on the sky in the cosmic microwave background lie within the plane of our galaxy, which, he says, "suggests that what we're really seeing is large-scale variations in dust properties within our galaxy, not something cosmological.

This seems in my opinion to be caused by a typical temporary gap in our knowledge as a result of a relatively new discovery. So instead of jumping to unsubstantiated conclusions, why don't we cross check our data from other sources and see where these anomalies are coming from. Just a thought from a realist and pragmatist.

Are you conceeding then that the creationists big bang of the known Cosmos now trumps the one Hubble proposed?

Hubble did not propose a Big Bang theory. In fact it was Georges Lemaître, a Belgian Catholic priest and professor of astrophysics, that proposed the Big Bang theory (though it was Fred Hoyle not Lemaître who coined the term "Big Bang" for this theory).

That Robert Gentry message in the center is right that the earth is the center by your attacking the messangers like Stephen Hawkins. I personally thought Stephen Hawkins was knowledgeable in this stuff. Now your calling him a quack, interesting?, etc... and the message that he called perhaps the greatest discovery, etc...

Who called Stephen Hawking a quack? Your a typical creationist who creates their own conflicts between religion and science.

P.S. I think you might be placing Hawkins in the axis of evil. right? along with all them creationists that too see the earth in the center of the universe, right? etc...Until you can prove Stephen Hawkins discovery does not link the earth to the center and us a special spot in the universe the Creationist big bang trumps Hubbles big bang theory that shifted the center, right?, etc...

Stop spouting nonsense. Stephen Hawking did not "discover" that the "earth is at the center" or "special spot in the universe".
Again Hubble did not propose the Big Bang theory. Go read your history and stop making idiotic claims.

You are showing your ignorance.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.


For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by johnfolton, posted 11-28-2008 1:32 PM johnfolton has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 11-28-2008 9:12 PM DevilsAdvocate has responded
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johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3934 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 116 of 159 (489644)
11-28-2008 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by jchardy
11-28-2008 7:19 PM


Re: A PLEA TO THE CENTRISTS!
jchardy,

You never watched Robert Gentries the center video and the discussion of the the video nor Barry Settlefield video!!!!!!! right?

P.S. Every point the center of the universe is a myth made up to explain the redshift. Watch the video's then decide.

jf


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DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 117 of 159 (489647)
11-28-2008 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by DevilsAdvocate
11-28-2008 8:33 PM


To ellaborate on JF's dishonest mine quoting (lifting quotes out of context) here are some articles on what Stephen Hawking actually said:

Dragan Huterer writes:

In 1992, the Cosmic Background Explorer (COBE) satellite famously mapped the anisotropies for the first time. Seeing COBE’s map of the CMB, cosmologist Stephen Hawking proclaimed it “the discovery of the millennium, if not all time,” precisely because COBE had detected the seeds of all cosmic structure today

This was over a decade before the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) anisotropies distribution data indicated the subtilties of multipole vectors present in the cosmic microwave background (CMB).

JF, if you read the actual article in Astronomy, you would understand this. However, you probably have no clue what it is talking about so you have to get your information filtered by a creationist website. And even then you can't get it right and even misinterpret it and twist it to what you want to believe.

You also reference the following as a source of your quote about Stephen Hawking, Cosmic Alignment: With the Cosmic Mind and the Cosmic Pattern by C. Countess. You have got to be f****** kidding me! Here is a quote from this quack pseudoscience book:

C. Countess writes:

An alignment of the Universe as a whole and the Individual. Interestingly enough, there has been a recent growing interest in a “Cosmic Alignment," that coincides with this one and is scheduled to reach its peak (Dec 21 2012) ushering in great change, for better or worse, depending on ones point of view.

and

C. Countess writes:

Ever notice how a spiral galaxy like our own resembles a hurricane? That is because they both are formed and function in ways that are similar. Similar enough so that if we align ourselves with the galaxy and the Cosmic Alignment, we align ourselves also with the forces that give rise to hurricanes. A calm as in the eye of a storm, the slowing of time as in black holes, which exist at the center of our galaxy; and brainstorms, which give rise to new ideas and solutions, are all attributed to some forms of meditation and the cosmic alignment.

I thought Christians were not supposed to read all this new age crap about meditating, pyramids and crystals? Need I say more?


For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 11-28-2008 8:33 PM DevilsAdvocate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 11-28-2008 9:17 PM DevilsAdvocate has not yet responded
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DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 118 of 159 (489648)
11-28-2008 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by DevilsAdvocate
11-28-2008 9:12 PM


I am done with this thread. You guys are a fucking joke. I was hoping for a good scientific discussion of cosmology instead we get the ranting of nutcases like john folton and the like.

Good luck for anyone who wants to talk legitimate science on here. I truly wish you the best of luck. I am done wasting my time.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : I am recanting this because I feel it is my duty to educate the uneducated. Forgive me for righteous anger.


For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 11-28-2008 9:12 PM DevilsAdvocate has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Coyote, posted 11-28-2008 9:25 PM DevilsAdvocate has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 449 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 119 of 159 (489649)
11-28-2008 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by DevilsAdvocate
11-28-2008 9:17 PM


Forgive him, Caesar -- he is a barbarian and considers that the customs of his tribe are the laws of nature.

G.B.Shaw, Caesar and Cleopatra

(I think they must be witnessing or something. Certainly their posts have nothing to do with mainstream science.)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 11-28-2008 9:17 PM DevilsAdvocate has not yet responded

  
jchardy
Member (Idle past 2743 days)
Posts: 85
Joined: 11-24-2008


Message 120 of 159 (489650)
11-28-2008 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by V-Bird
11-25-2008 8:12 PM


Re: Disclaimer... re: Epansion/Inflation
"Onsager is good enough, excepting that at the cusp [edge] of the expansion the laws of thermodynamics don't exist, it is at the point where 'something' touches or reaches out to the void energy is created simply by the action of the motion itself."

---(and why not? The “fourth law” was possibly different since we are talking about an accelerating GEV (temperature) due to the confines of the initial system; timing etc. but the fourth law (the Onsager reciprocal) is applicable to dynamic systems with changing pressures of both matter and energy. NONE of the other laws of thermodynamics are applicable in such a chaotic and changing system.)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by V-Bird, posted 11-25-2008 8:12 PM V-Bird has not yet responded

  
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