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Author Topic:   Expectations For The New Obama Democrat Government
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 256 of 341 (489746)
11-29-2008 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Buzsaw
11-27-2008 5:48 PM


Buzsaw writes:
quote:
Socialized medicine is government mandated and taxpayer financed restrctively dispensed on all citizens whether they want it or not. It eliminates alternative options and empowers government to dictate such things as imunizations, choice of practitioners and type of treatments etc.
Huh? We have required immunization now in the US. Are you saying we have socialized medicine?
Your insurance will only pay for doctors in the plan. Are you saying we have socialized medicine?
If your treatment is "experimental" or is otherwise deemed "unnecessary" by your HMO, it won't be paid for by your insurance. Are you saying we have socialized medicine?
"Restrictively dispensed"? You mean like the way it is now where if you don't have insurance, you don't get care unless you're willing to pay massive fees up front? How do you explain the fact that despite paying more for healthcare than any other nation, we are very far down on the outcome scale?
The British have much better healthcare than we do and only pay 40% of what we do. The French have the best healthcare in the world and pay a lot less for it than we do. And strangely, you get to choose your own doctor there. Why? Because the healthcare is paid for. That's the point behind single-payer: It doesn't matter which doctor you go to because all doctors get paid from the same source. Therefore, you have complete choice over your doctor with this "socializied medicine" you're so afraid of.
Everything you are hyperventilating over as symptoms of "socialized medicine" are things that already exist here in the US. Therefore, by your definition, we have "socialized medicine" here in the US.
I should think, then, that you'd much prefer a system that gives you choice of doctor (since all doctors are paid from the same source, there is no such thing as an "out of plan" doctor) and all treatments are on the table.
That's called "single-payer, universal coverage."
Why are you fighting against the very thing you claim to want?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Buzsaw, posted 11-27-2008 5:48 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 257 of 341 (489747)
11-29-2008 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by Straggler
11-27-2008 6:31 PM


Straggler writes:
quote:
If me and my family had to pay for this we would be bankrupt.
The single most common cause of bankruptcy in the US, responsible for about half of all bankruptcies, is unpaid medical bills.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Straggler, posted 11-27-2008 6:31 PM Straggler has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 258 of 341 (489751)
11-29-2008 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by Straggler
11-27-2008 6:31 PM


Socialized Community Medicine
Hey Straggler,
No system is perfect.
But some are better than others. Right now the US system has resulted in lower net wages available for living once health care premiums are paid, and you are screwed if you don't have it.
If me and my family had to pay for this we would be bankrupt.
Just my treatments alone would have bankrupted my family. Fortunately I was covered by the medical program from work AND that they kept it going for the 5 months I was out of work in treatment or in recovery. They went above and beyond, and it is a small company.
Insurance companies are bastards at the best of times. When people are at their physical, mental and financial weakest the very last thing that they need is the administrative and beauracratic nightmare of private insurance.
Another nasty element of the US system is that if I change medical programs now, I have a pre-existing condition that can limit my coverage.
By contrast, when we lived in Canada I had wisdom teeth extracted and we had our son by C-section, etc, all at gov't cost -- even though we were landed immigrants and not full citizens. There was no question of limited coverage.
I really do not understand the US right wing opposition to non-private health care.
It is because it is socialist and for the typical right wing-nut anything that even has a whiff of socialism is bad by definition. It doesn't matter that they could benefit from it.
You have to call it something else, to get around the programmed knee-jerk automatic response (like using other words to describe evolution).
I personally cost the British NHS all but nothing. I, as a top tax payer, probably pay far more than my own individual health costs would currently warrant. But I do not begrudge a single penny of this and as a wider family member the National Health service has saved me and my kin from financial and health related devastation.
You do benefit, as you do not need to worry about coverage or get a policy, but yes it is very little cost when run properly, for the benefit of the people rather than for the profit of the few.
Personally I think the US will still have a tough time getting any kind of system in place, even one that just covers kids.
Infinitely better a system that delivers health care based purely on need with no regard for individual ability to pay. IMHO.
Curiously, people don't seem to mind purchasing car insurance in order to drive, even though it is socialized car repair.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Straggler, posted 11-27-2008 6:31 PM Straggler has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 259 of 341 (489777)
11-29-2008 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by kuresu
11-27-2008 6:08 PM


Re: Socialized Medicine
kuresu writes:
........ Unless you mean alt. medicine, which more often than not is kooky. I know your history with it, and you're convinced that doctors scam us for the profit motive. Take away the profit motive, no reason to scam us.
By the way, health insurance effectively eliminates choice as it is because getting treatment out-of-network is generally prohibitively expensive.
I choose not to be one of the millions of victims of drug side effects ranging from psychological complications to heart attacks to physical death. I raised my family on alternatives which usually have only good side effects and which keep us healthy and relatively free from illness. There are wonderful alternative safe remedies for just about all illness symptoms.
If my wife and I were utilizing alternatives as we did for ourselves and our children under socialized medicine, we would likely have our children taken from us for refusing conventional methodology which we we deemed dangerous. When we raised our children we refused immunization for them and got by. When symptoms of any illness arose we knew exactly how to treat it by diet, detoxifying, Colin cleanse, etc. We had no family doctor and still don't for ourselves.
If accidents arise, conventional procedure can be good and needful.
Well, since all doctors would be part of the system, this isn't too much of a concern, now is it?
That's the crux. Doctors would be required to do conventional to be covered by the system. Alternative doctors and practitioners would be outlawed by the system. Whereas I'm convinced by my own experience and others that holistic natural is the way to go I cannot accept government mandated health care.
Well, health insurance already does this by refusing to cover certain treatments, so again, you're fighting the wrong battle.
But under socialized medicine I would be required to pay my share of a system which I oppose and would not use. I would have double jeopardy by having to finance the government big bucks thing and my own alternative thing.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by kuresu, posted 11-27-2008 6:08 PM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by kuresu, posted 11-30-2008 4:52 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 261 by DrJones*, posted 11-30-2008 5:08 AM Buzsaw has not replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 260 of 341 (489805)
11-30-2008 4:52 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by Buzsaw
11-29-2008 10:33 PM


Re: Socialized Medicine
But under socialized medicine I would be required to pay my share of a system which I oppose and would not use
Then I take it you have a problem paying taxes for public education, no? After all, you and your immediate family probably don't use it anymore, right?
And you're what, in your 80s? Not to be ghoulish, but chances are you could get a cancer (1 in 3 men get prostate, for example). Without insurance, are you going to be able to actually beat the cancer into remission without bankrupting your family?
It's called being part of society. Get over it. There are more reasons to adopt a single-payer system than to block it because of your irrational fear of convential medicine (which, btw, I've been absolutely fine under).
I would have double jeopardy by having to finance the government big bucks thing and my own alternative thing.
And as I've said (a resident brit would have to confirm this), the British NHS covers several alternative procedures. You just simply have to right the law to include these doctors (who, from my experience, don't actually have an m.d.).
When we raised our children we refused immunization for them and got by.
You're lucky. Many families who refuse immunizations aren't. Tell me, how do you cure meningitis with diet, a colon cleanse, and detoxification? How do you cure lung cancer? Prostate cancer?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Buzsaw, posted 11-29-2008 10:33 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by Buzsaw, posted 11-30-2008 9:21 PM kuresu has not replied

DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 261 of 341 (489808)
11-30-2008 5:08 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by Buzsaw
11-29-2008 10:33 PM


Re: Socialized Medicine
But under socialized medicine I would be required to pay my share of a system which I oppose and would not use.
So I presume you're withholding the portion of your taxes which pays the salaries of the various politicians that you didn't vote for? Or the portion that pays for the roads you never drive on? And of course you only pay for the fire department and police when they actually have to help you, right? you're waiting there with cash in hand when the firetruck pulls up to your place?
Edited by DrJones*, : No reason given.

soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Buzsaw, posted 11-29-2008 10:33 PM Buzsaw has not replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 262 of 341 (489888)
11-30-2008 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by kuresu
11-28-2008 3:30 AM


Re: Socialized Medicine
I would take that statement with a grain of salt
I don't know why, it's a pretty accurate statement.
as it's simply an extreme version of the attitude of why work if you'll never be able to show you're better?
I don't think I'd call that philosophy "extreme", in fact, I'd say it's the driving force behind industialization and capitalism.
Maybe it's not a conscious philosophy, but it's definitely a by product of a competitive market. It's is also an essential part of progress in a society. People need to know there are rewards for their efforts, that in turns drives the market into a competitive freenzy with everyone jockeying for the top position...kinda like a presidential election.
A little something called hyperbole.
Hmmm, I'd say it's a fair conclusion one could draw after observing modern societies. Work hard for the rewards and the glory is easy to observe, just look at US sports athletes, or MTV cribs, very few do it for the love.

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by kuresu, posted 11-28-2008 3:30 AM kuresu has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 263 of 341 (489918)
11-30-2008 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by kuresu
11-30-2008 4:52 AM


Re: Socialized Medicine
kuresu writes:
You're lucky. Many families who refuse immunizations aren't. Tell me, how do you cure meningitis with diet, a colon cleanse, and detoxification? How do you cure lung cancer? Prostate cancer?
This isn't the thread to go into it but the ailments you mention are successfully treated with better results than with conventional medicine. Cures are being effected regularly but holistic practitioners and health care providers are not allowed to refer to their methodologies or product remedies as cures. They are obliged to tell the diseased one to consult their medical doctor. Thus you don't hear about all that is being done by alternative methodology.
Under the oppression of socialized medicine via a president Obama, our freedom to apply safe and effective unconventional alternative health care would be limited further.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by kuresu, posted 11-30-2008 4:52 AM kuresu has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by subbie, posted 11-30-2008 10:01 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 265 by Rahvin, posted 12-01-2008 1:38 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 266 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-01-2008 3:03 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 267 by Straggler, posted 12-01-2008 4:00 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 270 by Modulous, posted 12-01-2008 5:17 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 273 by cavediver, posted 12-02-2008 9:32 AM Buzsaw has not replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 264 of 341 (489924)
11-30-2008 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by Buzsaw
11-30-2008 9:21 PM


Re: Socialized Medicine
quote:
Under the oppression of socialized medicine via a president Obama, our freedom to apply safe and effective unconventional alternative health care would be limited further.
Any actual evidence of this, or is it nothing more than paranoid rambling?

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Buzsaw, posted 11-30-2008 9:21 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 265 of 341 (490008)
12-01-2008 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by Buzsaw
11-30-2008 9:21 PM


Re: Socialized Medicine
Under the oppression of socialized medicine via a president Obama, our freedom to apply safe and effective unconventional alternative health care would be limited further.
Bullshit strawman. Socialized medicine != forced treatment. Universal availability does not mean the laws in the US allowing individuals to refuse treatment will somehow disappear.
Idiot.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Buzsaw, posted 11-30-2008 9:21 PM Buzsaw has not replied

DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 266 of 341 (490009)
12-01-2008 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by Buzsaw
11-30-2008 9:21 PM


Re: Socialized Medicine
Under the oppression of socialized medicine via a president Obama, our freedom to apply safe and effective unconventional alternative health care would be limited further.
Buzzsaw, what kind of unconventional alternative health care are you peddling? Chiropractic care is pretty main stream now for treating a host of muscle and skeletal ailments. Also my wife is from NC and makes a mean Jack Daniel hot totty to "cure" the common cold by knocking me out, literally. Or are you talking about witch doctor and snake oil stuff i.e. colon cleanse, holy handkerchiefs, etc.?

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Buzsaw, posted 11-30-2008 9:21 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 267 of 341 (490012)
12-01-2008 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by Buzsaw
11-30-2008 9:21 PM


Re: Socialized Medicine
Hi Buz
No patient in the UK is forced to take any medicine that they personally oppose!!!!
Your idea that socialised medicine somehow equates to enforced treatment is utterly unfounded.
Additionally I believe that the NHS does in fact supply various alternative therapies. I know it does homeopathy and acupuncture but it also seems that all sorts of other alternative treatments are available http://www.nhsdirectory.org/default.aspx
Personally I oppose the NHS providing such unproven or even unprovable treatments which seem to rely on a combination of the placebo effect, anecdotal evidence and a refusal to undergo double blind formal clinical trials for their onoing claims.......
But it does seem that they are actually available on the NHS regardless of my personal opposition.
Do US medical insurance companies cover all forms of alternative therapy then? If so is it because these options are cheaper?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Buzsaw, posted 11-30-2008 9:21 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by Granny Magda, posted 12-01-2008 4:49 PM Straggler has not replied
 Message 269 by kuresu, posted 12-01-2008 4:51 PM Straggler has not replied

Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 268 of 341 (490016)
12-01-2008 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by Straggler
12-01-2008 4:00 PM


Re: Socialized Medicine
Hi Straggler,
Personally I oppose the NHS providing such unproven or even unprovable treatments which seem to rely on a combination of the placebo effect, anecdotal evidence and a refusal to undergo double blind formal clinical trials for their ongoing claims.......
I know where you're coming from, I think homoeopathy is bunk too. But a reasonable argument can be made for including it in the NHS.
Most users of alternative medicine take it for chronic complaints or minor illnesses (colds and such). The placebo effect can be a valuable tool in fighting such minor maladies. If people are queuing up for CARM placebos, the NHS may as well provide them. It will provide real benefits, even if the drugs are bogus.
What's more, it keeps people who are not particularly ill from cluttering up the surgeries of real doctors!
Just a thought.
Mutate and Survive

"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by Rrhain, posted 12-07-2008 7:54 PM Granny Magda has replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 269 of 341 (490017)
12-01-2008 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by Straggler
12-01-2008 4:00 PM


Re: Socialized Medicine
Very few HMO's cover alternative medicine in the US.
The treatments themselves are certainly cheaper, but then, medical costs here are really quite inflated because we decided that people should be allowed to make a profit on the health of our people. Cheaper to take an herb than to get chemotherapy.
I'm not saying doctors and nurses and technicians and all other people involved in providing health care shouldn't make money. They just shouldn't be allowed to rake in profits. Its destroyed our health care system (seriously--sweden in the 70s had something like 130 beds per 1k*, the USSR ~110, and the US not even 80, and that was when hospitals generally were non-profit).
*can't remember if it was 1k or 10k, and my source for it is in a library that won't open for another 10 hours

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by Straggler, posted 12-01-2008 4:00 PM Straggler has not replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 270 of 341 (490022)
12-01-2008 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by Buzsaw
11-30-2008 9:21 PM


Re: Socialized Medicine
Under the oppression of socialized medicine via a president Obama, our freedom to apply safe and effective unconventional alternative health care would be limited further.
10 says that the USA will not be transferrring to a system comparable to (as in 'as socialist as') the UK's NHS over the next eight years. Of course, I'm sure they said that here in in 1944, and they would have been wrong.
So let's say that they do that.
Does that mean a patient in the UK has to use the NHS?
No. You can go private as your finances allow. I have a private dentist, and I get to choose the Dentist that suits my needs (TVs on the ceiling for the win, as they say) and who wants to keep me as a patient (customer care, hooray!).
I can't afford more broad medical coverage at the moment, but the NHS has been excellent the several times I've needed to use them. In the past, when I was a sporty type of person living with middle class parents, I was covered privately and had a surgical operation and several independent physiotherapy sessions courtesy of BUPA.
There are plenty of private alternative medicine peddlers in the UK, some of them with high street branches. There is only one proviso: Trading Standards mean that if in order to sell something you claim it does something - you have to demonstrate that it does indeed do that something. I realize the terrible burden this basic consumer protection is for conmen, snake oil salesman and dangerous quacks, but genuine purveyors of remedies and cures from the 'alternate' or 'holistic' medical community need not fear.
And of course, as previously mentioned, the NHS deals with all sorts of unusual medical practices:
quote:
Homeopathy has been available on the NHS since the Health Service first began in 1948.
There are five NHS homeopathic hospitals in the NHS and qualified homeopathic doctors work in many other settings such as community-based clinics, general and private practices.
It seems that under the terrible oppression of socialized medicine, alternative therapies has thrived quite well.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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