Anything Divine in the Bible?

So god, in his infinite wisdom, refused to prohibit men from treating women like cattle, instead tossing them a bone by giving them 7 days a month off from sex.Wow, what a guy! A truly heartwarming effort on his part.This may be an all time high (or low, depending on one's perspective) in rationalization. Whatever it is, it isn't divine.

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Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin FranklinWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

Yes, of course. Humans are flawed because of the choice that Adam and Eve made 6,000 some years ago, and god wrote the bible, not to correct our flaws and tell us how we should live, but to enable our wickedness and make it a bit easier on women 7 days out of each month.Makes perfect sense.

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Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin FranklinWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

Men get to take women sexually anytime they want, except that women get a week off once a month. Endorsing slavery, but only six years at a time. Wow, this god guy was a prince among men, wasn't he?

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Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin FranklinWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

What does the fact that god didn't denounce slavery say, that he approved of slavery?

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Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin FranklinWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

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a fatal stike was much worse then a non fatal strike, and the fatal strike warranted punishment... it was a deterrent against such conduct and shows that God disapproves

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it shows that he does not control human actions

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Whoa! Cognitive dissonance much?So, he wanted to show his disapproval of beating slaves to death, but not beating the living shit out of them so long as they survived one day after the beating, and didn't want to show his disapproval of slavery.It's been a very long time since I've seen such irrational commitment to an obviously flawed system of morality. I'd hoped it was because it had disappeared. Oh well.

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besides, in those days slavery was being employed. People were selling themselves into slavery in order to have work and the necessities of life, so why would he condemn it?besides, in those days slavery was being employed. People were selling themselves into slavery in order to have work and the necessities of life, so why would he condemn it?

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Seriously. Are you so naive or uninformed to actually believe that slavery was entirely, or even mostly, a voluntary institution?Really?!?

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Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin FranklinWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

Wow. You really are that uninformed and naive.Interesting that you ignored the rest of my message.

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Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin FranklinWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

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i dont like getting into pointless debates

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Curious statement to make on a debate forum.

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these arguments can go around and around forever and in the end we each stick to our own conclusions anyway

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Yes, particularly when you ignore the arguments and rationales of those opposing you and cling irrationally to your refuted positions.

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Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin FranklinWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

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everyone does that

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even you my dear

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Please find one example of an argument you made that I didn't respond to.

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Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin FranklinWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

Why anyone would ever get the idea that you're a bigot is beyond me.

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Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin FranklinWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

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You need to study history and religion before making such ignorant and uninformed remarks.

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Demonstrably false.For evidence I offer Buz's posting history.

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Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin FranklinWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

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Did Jefferson write something into the US Constitution about the Creator endowing us with something?

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No.

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We hold certain truths to be self evident, Jefferson wrote. Did he mention the Creator or not?

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Yes, but not your idea of a creator. Jefferson was not a christian. The closest label to describe his ideas would be deist. Should you entertain any idea that Jefferson thought our country would be based on or derived from the bible, consider this quote: -Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813, found here.If you think that the rights to life, liberty and the happiness of pursuit are from the bible, I'd be most curious to see where you think they can be found.

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Yes, I know Jefferson was a Diest (spelling?). That could mean that he accepted some of the Bible and dismissed other parts.

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It could mean that he believes in the tooth fairy and accepts parts of Poor Richard's Almanac as divine. Do you have any actual evidence that he did accept some of the bible? Can you show which parts he accepted and which he didn't? Most relevant to this topic, do you have any evidence whatsoever that he felt that any part of the bible was divinely inspired? Or are you content to rest comfortably in ignorance of actual facts, relying instead on hope and possibilities?{ABE}Here are a few more quotes from Jefferson relating to the divinity of the bible and its relation to our country, just for fun: Think long and hard before you again cite Jefferson in support of your bible. Edited by subbie, : As notedEdited by subbie, : ???

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Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin FranklinWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

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No but yes seems to be your answer below

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Except that it isn't. It would take a certain amount of attention to detail to understand what why you said is wrong. I'll be impressed if you take the time and make the effort to find out.

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Jefferson supplies legitimacy to his concept of human govenrment by refering to an ultimate Governor - a Creator. That is a God. Sorry.

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Your concept of god is that he is a creator. That doesn't mean that everyone's concept of a creator is one of a god. Logical fallacy.

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The poster implied that owe God nothing for the existence of Human GOvernement. Thomas Jeffeson would not agree with him.

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Nothing that you have said would prove that.

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Whether Jefferson believed in Allah, Vishnu, Yahweh, the Christian God, or a Deist God makes no difference. It is a an ultimate Governor a creating final authority as the basis of the legitimacy of human government in this case.

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No, that's your flawed spin on what Jefferson said.

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Well, you apparently didn't read about the 50th year of Jubilee ordained in the Old Testament. Every 50 years, depts were forgiven, slaves were released, property was returned.

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First of all, the quote you're responding to was Jefferson's, not mine. Second, the release of slaves every 50 years is hardly the mark of divinity.

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Why did he have a Bible then? Why did he have something called "Jefferson's Bible"?

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He had a lot of books, including a Koran. The fact that he had a bible says absolutely noting about whether he thought it divine. In fact, considering that the Jefferson Bible was a series of excerpts from the bible, leaving out the considerable portions that he thought were either nonsense or not the word of Jesus, the strongest conclusion we can come to is that Jefferson significant portions of the bible were not accurate or worth keeping.Give up on Jefferson, he offers your ilk no port whatsoever.{ABE}

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The inclusion of so many foundamentally important issues to human life in the first several thousand words of Genesis is ONE of the things which persuades me that it is a Divine Book.

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Curious that the mere inclusion of those things, completely regardless of the accuracy of what it says about those things, makes such an impression on you. The mark of a true zealot.Edited by subbie, : As noted

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Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin FranklinWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

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When Jefferson wrote these words:

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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every from of tyranny over the mind of man."

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Thomas Jefferson never wrote those words. Thomas Jefferson wrote http://memory.loc.gov/master/mss/mtj/mtj1/022/0400/0440.jpg

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Do you think this "God" refered to is the same as the Creator in the Declaration of Independence ? I didn't ask you if you think he means Christianity's God. I know he had critical things to say about Christianity. So did A.W. Tozer, G.H. Pember, and other Christian teachers and scholars.

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It wasn't just that Jefferson had critical things to say about christianity. He didn't believe Christ to be the messiah. He believed Christ was a great moral teacher. But he didn't believe in the virgin birth. He didn't believe Christ died and arose for the dead. He didn't believe Christ performed any miracles.In short, he didn't believe in the divinity of Christ, nor did he believe in the divinity of the bible.

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I ask you if you think that this God (with an altar) and the Creator of his statement in the Declaration are the same entity?

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Objection, assuming facts not in evidence.

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Seems that Jefferson is refering to some grand Moral Law. Then I would ask who is the law giver for this transcendent moral law. Who is the Legislator?

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There is no law giver. There is no Legislator. Jefferson was a believer in Natural Law. Natural Law comes from nature.

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Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin FranklinWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

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Can you supply us with an unambiguous statement of Thomas Jefferson that he was a Deist? Where did he state clearly that he was a Deist?

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I'm not aware that he ever said he was a deist, but I'm not a tremendous Jefferson scholar. Of course, I never said he was a deist, so I'm not sure why you're asking me this question. I said the closest label to apply would be deist. Here's what TJ said himself: I must say, I'm rather amused by your fixation on Jefferson. It's symptomatic of something I see in a lot of fundies; a misplaced importance on the ideas of authority-type figures when arguing to nonbelievers about the validity of christianity. It's perhaps most vividly illustrated when fundies talk about the "conversion" of Anthony Flew. I can't help but come to one of two conclusions. Either fundies think their own dogmas are bolstered by the discussion of such authorities' beliefs, or they think that nonbelievers will somehow suddenly convert if they only knew that authority-types agree with fundies. It's a fascinating behavior.In any event, it seems to me that this whole Jefferson vein in this thread is terribly off topic. If it really means that much to you, why don't you start another thread?

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Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin FranklinWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

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As well, this is evidence of the divinity of the Bible in that it was the Ten Commandments which established the Golden Rule.

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Ah Buzzie, still lying for Jeebus I see.

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Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin FranklinWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat