Anything Divine in the Bible?

Can you back that up from scripture from the Pentateuch? Israelites were commanded to treat their fellow Israelites kindly but this was not expected for their foreign slaves.How about this one: This only applies to Israelites who become indentured servants to other Israelites. This does not apply to non-Hebrew slaves as seen here: Does that mean that God also wrote the Code of Hammurabi. Scholars believe Hammurabi to be the first king of the Babylonian Empire and his reign is accurately dated to the 17th century BC. The stories of Moses life date to to the 14th and 13th century BC at the latest.Here are some eerily familiar slavery laws present in Hammurabi's Code of Laws: Compare to the Mosaic Law: Do you really see any difference here? Both slaves are treated like property i.e. cattle and thus have monetary value. There is no difference between your Mosaic law and Babylonian law. They both have the same "eye for an eye" type of jurisprudence. They are one in the same. And because Moses came later than Hammurabi, Mosaic law IS derived from ancient Babylonian and Sumerian laws.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

---

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

These scriptures seems to contratadict your premise: However, this seems to be a minor difference between the two. Both advocate an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth type of jurispudence. It makes sense that the Hebrew law derived from the older Sumerian laws would build on them and modify them. Hebrew law still advocates treating women, children, servents and slaves as property not much different than cattle as shown here: also Why is it so difficult to see how Mosaic law derived from the of ancient Sumerian laws passed down from generation to generation from the time Abraham left Ur of the Chaldeas i.e. Sumeria.

---

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

Here are some more scripture that underminds your premise. Yaweh deliberately killed the child of David as a result of David's actions as seen here: So Yahweh (God) according to your Bible does practice "sympathetic" punishment and in fact caused the child to suffer for 7 days before killing him. God enacted infantcide.How about God killing all the Egyptian firstborn including infants and small children (and God hardened Pharoes heart)? Wiping out the Amalikites including infants and small children. also and finally Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

---

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

You are right, Moses never lived in Babylon. However, Abraham, Moses ancestor, did originate from Ur of the Chaldees, a city-state in Old Babylonia. Thus the stories of Genesis would most certainly have been passed down from generation to generation (being altered along the way) to the time of Moses. From tradition, Moses is assumed to have penned these oral transmitted traditions into what we now know as the Torah. It is not a far stretch to see how Abraham took many of his Babylonian religious beliefs with him i.e. the Biblical Flood=Epic of Gilgamesh, etc. We can also see how the Israelites being enslaved in Egypt could have picked up their monotheist beliefs from the Egyptians (i.e. Pharaoh Akhenaten 1364-1347 B.C. support of the monotheist cult of the sun god Ra) and have backfilled the Genesis stories to match this monotheist belief.

---

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

These are not facts, these are ancient writings from an unknown author. I could write that I am Joan of Arc reincarnated, that does not mean it is true. Don't confuse religious belief with facts or credible evidence. They are not synonomous.

---

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This is pure speculation. Bend and twist the scripture to however you want to interpret it. It makes no difference to me how you want to interpret this as I do not believe that a. god exists and b. the bible is the inerent word of god. However, to any non-christian these words are pretty indicative of a malevolent and evil god who kills innocent children and babies as well as a host of other attrocities. Not much different than the Babylonian gods in my opinion. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

---

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

The only case this applied for the Israelites is when some of their own people became slave i.e. indentured servents for other Israelites such as when misfortune fell upon them or they had no property i.e. no money. This was practiced in other cultures of that day as well.In the case of foreign slaves the Israelites could do anything they wanted with them. Beat them senseless, give women slaves to their sons to rape, etc. Being a slave in some cases for these foreigners was probably worse than death (and I am sure many probably took their own lives). Yes their were probably slave masters who treated their slaves better than other ones, just as there were in later Greek and Roman cultures. However they had the God given right to beat their slaves senseless to make them work.Slavery is slavery however you want to see it in your rose colored Christian glasses. It is a deplorable and horrible act. And if you try to justify it than I don't see you much better than the KKK or skinheads promoting hate crimes.Thank goodness we have passed that point in our history (though we are not all out of the woods yet). Civil rights have been legislated and enforced, apartheid is gone in South Africa, human slave trade is diminishing (unfortunately the sex slave trade still covertly exists) etc. It is only through collective policing of ourselves that we can attain true equality of all humanity.

---

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

ROTFL. Oooh, pick me I want to be a slave! Are you fkg kidding me? You think people actually wanted to be slaves! Why don't you go tell an African American that his ancestors wanted to be slaves and it wasn't all that bad. Why, I can't see what all the fuss of the Civil War was over?I have a homework assignment:1. Read Roots by Alex Haley, also watch the series
2. Here is another good read "American Slavery: 1619-1877"
3. Watch the movie Sparticus
4. Read your own damn bibleBy the way, I know some of these are stories are slightly fictionalized but they should give you a rough idea how bad slavery was and is.Also if slavery is such a blessing why don't you come and be my slave for free. I could use some slave labor. I need my deck stained and my garage reorganized.

---

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

There are slaves in the business directory? They'll do it for free?BTW, you may chalk me up to being an AH, I really don't really care. I have been on both sides of the fence religiously. I know what Christians believe and I have read the Bible cover to cover (which many Christians have not). I find it difficult that religous zealots(not just Christians) will find any means to try to justify the unjustifiable. How can you justify slavery, child abuse, rape, murder, plunder and other attrocities found in the Bible and many times condoned or even command by God Almighty himself.To these religious zealots double standards and hypocricy are not important as long as they can back up their faith and their beliefs. I know I use to be one.

---

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

We have legalized slavery today? Where? From my understanding, slavery is outlawed in nearly every country in the world.By definition, slaves are involuntarily property of other human beings. They have no rights, no personal property, receives no compensation (except food, lodging and bare essentials so they can live), cannot leave or travel without permission, are subject to the whims and desires of their masters, etc. You are right, a "slave" that was a Hebrew was more like an indentured servant with certain rights bestowed. However, these rights did not pertain to non-Hebrew slaves. As to how these Hebrew and non-Hebrew slaves were actually treated, it is uncertain. However, based on the dialog of the OT it does not seem to be that much different from their neighboring countries as I pointed out earlier from the Code of Hammurabi. Definition of condone: "to overlook something illegal, objectionable, or the like". Do you consider slavery acceptable and/or legal? Than why are you letting god off the hook? He permited it. He could have made commandment #11 Thou shalt not take slaves or permit any Hebrew to become a slave. But not even once did he ever command the Israelites not to practice slavery. This altruist behavior is not confined to Christianity. It is found in many religions, philosophies and cultures throughout history as seen here: also Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

---

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

Such as?How do we know these details where not filled in after the fact? The earliest copies of the writings of the OT i.e. the Dead Sea Scrolls date back to at the latest to the second century BC, well after all the events in the OT took place. This was more than ample time for the Jewish scribes and scholars to write in their 'fulfilled' prophecies after historical events took place.As far as prophecies dealing with Jesus, who knows how much the early Christians concocted of this story to fit in with the earlier Jewish prophecies of a messiah? Historical record is very subject to outright fabrication and vaticinium ex eventu (writing about events that have already happened as if the author were living before the events took place). Therefore unless a historical writing is substantiated from a wide variety of other contemporary (at the same time) external sources it should be treated with skepticism.Do you believe Nostradamus' writings as well? They also incorporate such vague generalities that they could be applied to just about any event in history. The same is true of the prophecies of the OT and NT. If not, than why pray tell do we get a slew of religious nuts predicting every 10 years that the world is going to end.

---

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

Where was God when over 6 million Jewish men, women and children were brutally murdered by the Nazis during WWII? Where was God when they tried to exterminate the Poles, Gypsies, handicapped, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, political opponents, living in Germany and other occupied countries?Where was God when over 1.5 million Armenians were brutally massacred by the Ottoman Turks in the early 20th century?Where was God when nearly 1 million Tutsi were ethnically cleansed i.e. butchered in Rwanda in 1994?Where was he when 6 to 7 million people died in the Ukrain under Joseph Stalin's communist regime?Where was he when Pol Pot systematically murdered nearly 26% (1.7 million) of his population in Cambodia in the name of communism.Also, in probably the largest ethnicide event in human history, nearly 90% (10 to 20 million) of the Native American population was wiped out in 400 years of genocide against the Native Americans by European explorerers, colonists and settlers in the name of Christianity, the Manifest Destiny and even sometimes under the direct orders of American Presidents themselves i.e. Andrew Jackson's Indian Removal Acts.Where was God when for nearly 1000 years the Christian world and even the holy Roman Catholic Church has brutally attacked and murdered people of other ethnicities and religions?And these are just a meager few of the more recent ethnocide events of the last millenia.So if your god is so good then why has he been silent about the millions upon millions of innocent human beings slaughtered in human history? Why does he seem to play favorites to one race of people?No, it is up to human beings to police ourselves and to protect the innocent and unprotected.

---

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

The Arabs had nothing to do with the Holocaust. The Holocaust was caused by Europeans specifically the German Nazi's not Arabs. So why are the Arabs punished for something they did not do.Besides, not all Jews support the methods Israel have used to forcibly migrate all the Palestinian Arabs out of Israel. There is a division even in Israel of the Zionists and those who would seek more amiable relations with their Arab neighbors. This Zionism is not confined to the Jewish ethnic group either, unfortunately there are Zionist Christians who urge Israel to take back the West Bank and other contested lands to fulfill their interpretation of the Bible's prophecies. By the way, I am not anti-Semitic, my grandmother's is from Jewish German ancestry and my brother-in-law is Jewish. That was not my point I was making. I was addressing Peg's statement: . My answer is that your god chose to do nothing and did not put a stop to the murder of millions of innocent people. This is not about being 'comfortable', this is about life and death!However, since you brought it up. Why is it that your god deliberately morally contradicts himself throughout the Bible? In the Bible, he not only condones but also commands the murder of children, slavery, rape and other atrocities.Many Christians liken God to a father, however how many fathers would lead there families to murder their neighbors and enslave their neighbors children. What kind of sick, sadistic father would do this? Where? Can you produce a single shred of evidence that this mysterious god of your exists? And why has he done nothing to stop any of these atrocities? According to your logic, your god would have to self-annihilate because of the pain and death he has deliberately caused to humankind.How do you know what I have and have not done? Now you are going to judge me? Go take a hike. How do you know what I having "gotten away with"? You do not even know me? Who is doing the judging here Jay? What do you mean by righteous? Am I more moral according to the moral codes adopted by most of today's humanity? Yes, I am more moral than Adolph Hitler and Pol Pot! Am I perfect in a moral way? No. Who is? Not even god is by your own standards. That includes your god! Your sad attempt to convert me is disturbing. Quoting scripture at me is useless. I have read the bible and it is full of contradictions. The problem is that if God is the god of the OT I do not want anything to do with him, based on an ethical standpoint. Why is our moral standard today higher than that of the OT? Have you ever though of that? Why is it wrong for slavery and ethnic cleansing in today's modern society, yet your god condoned and commanded it over 4000 years ago? Again, why are you trying to turn this around? However, to answer your damn question, do you really think me committing small infractions of our moral code is anywhere equal to the murder of millions of people? I will be humble and say I make mistakes everyday but that is not near the havoc that some tyrants have caused our human race.I asked these questions to get you to think. They are rhetorical and not meant to be taken literally. I see no evidence of god's existence. Even if I did, if he were to be considered a moral and good god he would not be the god of the Bible who needlessly inflicts pain and death wherever he turns.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

---

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

You stated earlier: If this divine reaction to the Holocost is for God to reinstate the state of Israel (that is what it seems that you are implying here), than why are the Arabs being punished in the process? Your intrepretation that Israel has a god given right to reoccupy Palestine is part of the problem of what is happening in the Middle East. This adds fuel to the fire of already strained political tensions between Israel and the rest of the Middle East. In no way am I advocating that Arabs have a right to commit terrorism in response to the forced settlements by Israel, however it is important that we understand the underlying causes for the conflict that happening over there and stop egging Israel to take on the rest of the Middle East as many Christians (and Jews) here in the US have done for the last 60+ years. Ok I will get off my soapbox now. No, but if you make an assertion of divine support for a particular ethnic group you better back it up with solid evidence. Otherwise I will discuss this in depth. This debate board is all about backing up your assertions with facts and evidence otherwise go to a religous discussion board where everyone agrees with you. It means nothing if it does not apply to reality. I could care less what you believe but if you make an unsubstantiated assertion on a discussion board i.e. "God supports the nationalization of Israel" than you better be able to back up your assertions with evidence. Sure why not? What does this have to do with anything? Are you trying to justify the "good" things that you say god did in the OT against the attrocities that he caused to occur? Does this not go against your premise that no matter what you do good it cannot overcome a single thing you do wrong? So how does this apply to your god? I have read the story of Corrie Ten Boom and many others as well. Do you honestly think only Christians do the only good in this world? Should I list all the good things that atheists, agnostics and non-christians have done that have made this world a better place? I am not trying to "impress you with my moral outrage." I am trying to illustrate that your god you describe in the Bible is not as good as you think he is even by your own standards. Would that be the stories we here in the Bible about Jesus Christ? We do not even know how accurate these stories are. That would be like asking how I racked up with the story of Buddha or Confuciuous. I have no clue who the real Jesus was? So I can't even compare. What difference does it make anyways. Stop turning this around. It isn't about me. I would be higher as most decent human beings on this planet. I am not sending my daughter to eternal torment if she doesn't believe in me or rejects me. If my daughter didn't want anything to do with me, I would still love her. If she was in trouble (i.e. drugs, etc) I would not even hesitate to go and save her. Would your god do this? Why is sending everyone to hell who doesn't believe in someone who hasn't spoken with humanity or even made us aware of his existence for 2000+ years. It would be like me going away from family for 50 years and then expecting them to recognise me when I got back (except god has never come back). Why does your god plant fossils of millions of extinct animals and plants, decieve just about every intelligent person into thinking that the Earth and Universe are billions of years old and make the Bible contradict itself? Why should we trust your god??? I don't need a 2000+ year old book to tell me about ethics. We have many codes of ethics from throughout history which have evolved and given humans a more equal footing i.e. The Constitution, the UN Bill of Human Rights, etc. This is a religous argument. You have not provided any evidence as to why we should believe your god is real. Not that I can think of. There has been no one that I have treated badly where they would smile or spit on my grave. Have you? You have no clue who I am or my religious background. Don't assume you do. I am tired of certain arrogant religious people (not all, my wife is a Christian) who think they have the God given right to berate and ridicule anyone who disagrees with their religious beliefs.This is not a religious conversion board, go take your religious banter elsewhere.

---

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

What a short-sided bigoted view of the world you have. What is an anti-Biblical culture? Can you please define that?You need to study history and religion before making such ignorant and uninformed remarks.Yes, Christian missionaries have been targets of attack throughout history but this is not unique to Christianity. Persecution has been targeted against people of all religions and ethnicities sometimes from other cultures, ethnicities and religions and sometimes by their own i.e. the Roman Catholic vs Protestant conflict over Northern Ireland. In India both sides of the religious equation: Christians and Hindus have been accused of atrocities as seen here: India's vengeful Christians turn to murder as Hindus step up their killing campaign and Christians in India face prospect of more attacks by extremists.As far as Buddhism, this religion explicitly teaches the sanctity of all life and is deeply pacifistic. If you harm other humans in the Buddhist "culture" than you are not practicing true Buddhism.In fact you have it backwards about Vietnam, many of the Buddhists in Vietnam were persecuted and sometimes killed not by the communist Vietcong but by our own allies, the southern Vietnamese Catholic regime of President Diem. In fact it was the French who colonized and by sword point converted many Vietnamese from Buddhism to become Catholics in the 19th and early 20th century. It was the French Catholics that enacted laws specifically targeted to taking away the rights of the Buddhist population. Several Buddhists committed acts of self-immolation in order to bring to light President Diem's corrupt regime which eventually was overthrown by a bloody coupe-de-ta by his own generals.So your claim that Christianity is somehow innocent of violence and is the only religion subject to persecution is totally untrue and is a bold face lie.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

---

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan