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Author Topic:   Anything Divine in the Bible?
subbie
Member (Idle past 34 days)
Posts: 3508
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 31 of 406 (489943)
11-30-2008 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Peg
11-30-2008 11:05 PM


Re: read again
Wow. You really are that uninformed and naive.

Interesting that you ignored the rest of my message.


Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Peg, posted 11-30-2008 11:05 PM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Peg, posted 11-30-2008 11:43 PM subbie has responded

Peg
Member (Idle past 3003 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 32 of 406 (489951)
11-30-2008 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by subbie
11-30-2008 11:10 PM


Re: read again
i dont like getting into pointless debates

these arguments can go around and around forever and in the end we each stick to our own conclusions anyway


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by subbie, posted 11-30-2008 11:10 PM subbie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by subbie, posted 11-30-2008 11:46 PM Peg has responded

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 34 days)
Posts: 3508
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 33 of 406 (489954)
11-30-2008 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Peg
11-30-2008 11:43 PM


Re: read again
quote:
i dont like getting into pointless debates

Curious statement to make on a debate forum.

quote:
these arguments can go around and around forever and in the end we each stick to our own conclusions anyway

Yes, particularly when you ignore the arguments and rationales of those opposing you and cling irrationally to your refuted positions.


Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Peg, posted 11-30-2008 11:43 PM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Peg, posted 11-30-2008 11:56 PM subbie has responded

Peg
Member (Idle past 3003 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 34 of 406 (489955)
11-30-2008 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by subbie
11-30-2008 11:46 PM


Re: read again
everyone does that

even you my dear


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by subbie, posted 11-30-2008 11:46 PM subbie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by subbie, posted 11-30-2008 11:58 PM Peg has not yet responded

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 34 days)
Posts: 3508
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 35 of 406 (489957)
11-30-2008 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Peg
11-30-2008 11:56 PM


Re: read again
quote:
everyone does that

even you my dear


Please find one example of an argument you made that I didn't respond to.


Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Peg, posted 11-30-2008 11:56 PM Peg has not yet responded

anglagard
Member
Posts: 2185
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 36 of 406 (489961)
12-01-2008 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Peg
11-30-2008 11:05 PM


Re: read again
Peg writes:

sadly our understanding of 'slave' comes from that dreadful history of the slave trade... but for many ancient people, being a slave was not as terrible as it was for the black africans in america

Perhaps you should look into the physical condition of Roman slaves as preserved in Pompeii.

Also, just use your God-given mind. There is a difference between a slave from a conquered territory and an indentured servant from the same 'tribe.' In history does an actual slave always have the right to ward off unwanted sexual advances from the owner? Do they have the right to legal protection? Do they have the right to not be physically abused? Not even in the Bible.

Now outside of the Bible, slaves did have rights. Such as the right to be thrown into the fires of the mouth of Baal or have their heart sliced out at the top of some temple, be it Aztec, Mayan, or even Hindu, when the foreign conquest business was less than fruitful.

Slavery as a good? Only in the mindlessness of something as awful as the Christian Cult of Ignorance.


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon

The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Peg, posted 11-30-2008 11:05 PM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Peg, posted 12-01-2008 1:40 AM anglagard has not yet responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3003 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 37 of 406 (489967)
12-01-2008 1:40 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by anglagard
12-01-2008 12:42 AM


Re: read again
some people back then obviously chose to be slaves, so it must not have been as bad as it seems... You are talking like slavery was torture when quite obviously it wasnt.

i did mention that the hebrew word also denotes a 'servant' Even in our world today we go to an employer and request to go into service for them in exchange for money

Yes, some slaves were mistreated, thats obvious seeing there were laws in place that restricted how much punishment could be given... and if it went beyond what was considered reasonable, then the slave owner would himself be punished

I still see human rights being upheld in the mosaic law... i doubt very much that slaves of other nations received the same concessions


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by anglagard, posted 12-01-2008 12:42 AM anglagard has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-01-2008 5:59 AM Peg has not yet responded
 Message 46 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-01-2008 3:19 PM Peg has responded

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1175 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 38 of 406 (489979)
12-01-2008 5:59 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Peg
12-01-2008 1:40 AM


Re: read again
some people back then obviously chose to be slaves, so it must not have been as bad as it seems... You are talking like slavery was torture when quite obviously it wasnt.

The only case this applied for the Israelites is when some of their own people became slave i.e. indentured servents for other Israelites such as when misfortune fell upon them or they had no property i.e. no money. This was practiced in other cultures of that day as well.

In the case of foreign slaves the Israelites could do anything they wanted with them. Beat them senseless, give women slaves to their sons to rape, etc. Being a slave in some cases for these foreigners was probably worse than death (and I am sure many probably took their own lives). Yes their were probably slave masters who treated their slaves better than other ones, just as there were in later Greek and Roman cultures. However they had the God given right to beat their slaves senseless to make them work.

Slavery is slavery however you want to see it in your rose colored Christian glasses. It is a deplorable and horrible act. And if you try to justify it than I don't see you much better than the KKK or skinheads promoting hate crimes.

Thank goodness we have passed that point in our history (though we are not all out of the woods yet). Civil rights have been legislated and enforced, apartheid is gone in South Africa, human slave trade is diminishing (unfortunately the sex slave trade still covertly exists) etc. It is only through collective policing of ourselves that we can attain true equality of all humanity.


For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan
This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Peg, posted 12-01-2008 1:40 AM Peg has not yet responded

Brian
Member (Idle past 3033 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 39 of 406 (489983)
12-01-2008 6:33 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Peg
11-30-2008 10:51 PM


Re: read again
it shows that he does not control human actions

And the Book of Jonah shows that He does control human actions.

Thus, we must conclude that Yahweh is an evil bloodthirsty tyrant who gets off on peoples' suffering.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Peg, posted 11-30-2008 10:51 PM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Peg, posted 12-01-2008 6:41 AM Brian has responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3003 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 40 of 406 (489984)
12-01-2008 6:41 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Brian
12-01-2008 6:33 AM


Re: read again
hence why he sent his son to redeem mankind i guess
This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Brian, posted 12-01-2008 6:33 AM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Brian, posted 12-01-2008 8:34 AM Peg has not yet responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3975
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 41 of 406 (489985)
12-01-2008 6:52 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by subbie
11-28-2008 10:48 AM


subbie writes:

Endorsing slavery, but only six years at a time.

Don't forget that's only for Hebrew slaves. Other tribes are never set free.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by subbie, posted 11-28-2008 10:48 AM subbie has not yet responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3033 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 42 of 406 (489993)
12-01-2008 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Peg
12-01-2008 6:41 AM


Re: read again
hence why he sent his son to redeem mankind i guess

Maybe Yahweh would be more successful in 'redeeming' mankind if Yahweh begged us to forgive Him for the deliberate suffering He has forced upon mankind.

The whole 'sending the son' routine is essentially a ridiculous concept with huge blunders in it that people have to be blind not to see, or don't want to see.

Jesus was probably a decent guy, maybe a little misunderstood, but He certainly was no messiah.

Anyway, back to the topic.

To me the whole Bible is a human construction which reeks of mythology and propoganda.

To conclude if there is anything divine in it we would have to prove that there is such a thing as the divine, and after thousands of years of human history not a single person has been able to do this.

So, how can we make give credit for anything to a being that may not even exist?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Peg, posted 12-01-2008 6:41 AM Peg has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 406 (489999)
12-01-2008 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Nighttrain
11-27-2008 2:39 AM


Re: Biblical Inspiration
Nighttrain writes:

2 Tim 3:16 tells us that all scripture is inspired of God. Now inspiration has been stretched to mean dictate, encourage, to breathe, arouse, etc., etc. Whatever the meaning, scripture should contain divine wisdom. Have you ever had the hairs on the back of your head erect from one of these pearls? I used to think 'turn the other cheek' conveyed a great depth of wisdom till I realised masochists had probably been doing it for millenia. So the question is 'have you found a spine-tingler in the bible?' What line, phrase, verse seemed closest to divine? Folk wisdom doesn`t count.

You have a very elementary and incomplete understanding of what comprises Biblical inspiration. It's a lot more than emotional ecstasy and spine tingling sensations.

If one is to appreciate the inspirational aspects of the Bible, one must corroborate all of the significant evidences of what lends credence to it as a historical record as well as a prophetic record of what would become history subsequent to the time the manuscripts were written.

Some corroborative examples supportive to the divine inspiration of the Biblical record:

1. Archaeological evidence in the Gulf of Aqaba region of Nuweiba beach and sandbar which secularist archaeologists avoid and refuse to verify or refute. The National Geographic, for example has claimed that there is absolutely no evidence of the Biblical Exodus. I watched their so called "Exodus Revealed" program where they cited a traditional Mt Sinai version of the Exodus where the crossing was allegedly near the traditional mountain at the mouth of Aqaba where there was no evidence whatsoever. The ones who produced this which was essentially an undermining of the real Exodus cite where the evidence was repeatedly reminded the viewers that there was no evidence for the Exodus whatsoever, referring to the old traditional cite. They totally ignored the Nuweiba cite where all of the evidence, including the chariot debris, the entrapment terrain, the burnt topped mountain, the NT statement that it was in Arabia and the split rock as well as other evidence.

2. Lack of transitional fossil evidence.

3. Enormity of complexity and design observed on earth and in the cosmos.

4. Prophecy of Ezekiel 35 through 39 which predicts end time messianic declarations of scattering of Jews throughout the world to be restored as a nation.
35, 36 = Prophecy of Edom/modern Palestinians, descendents of Essau and Ishmael where these people would be claiming two nations including the Jewish holy cites such as the Temple Mount.

36 = Prophecy of desolate hills and valleys of Israel coming to life and being restored to production and lush vegetation.

37 = Prophecy of the Jews returning to their land never to be again removed and that they would return from all nations and dwell in their own land under messianic reign of the messiah who was to be the descendant of David.

38. = Prophecy of the nations surrounding nations and nations north of Israel who would threaten and eventually invade the restored nation, i.e. Armageddon. The nations named and described are in place as enemies of Israel all working for the division of the land and of the annihilation of the nation as Jewish and as Israel.

5. Prophecies of end time Messiah in Isaiah 52 who would be first offered up as a sacrifice for the sins of mankind (Isaiah 53,54) and who would become ruler of restored Israel.

6. Prophecy of Jesus in Luke 21 when he prophesied that Jerusalem would be invaded and become occupied by Gentile nations until the end times when it would again be occupied by Jews.

7. Compatibility with 1LoT in that no energy is created from nothing. All energy, matter and forces comes from the divine omnipotent creator to be changed and managed by the designer according to his intelligent creative and manageability powers.

8. Compatibility with 2LoT in that equilibrium is effect when energy moves from creator to creation. This is effected by work of the designer. An example of this is also when Jesus healed the woman who had a blood issue affliction. When the woman was healed, Jesus noted that energy had left him and went into her ailment to effect the healing.

9. Observance of cultures comparing Biblical cultures with pagan and secularist cultures where the more blessed cultures are those who follow Biblical principles and guidelines.

As I have always contended, it's not that each of the above proves the Biblical record, but that when you corroborate all of these, not to mention many other evidences which I've not cited, you have evidences supportive to the inspiration of the Biblical record. There are arguments pro and con for some of the above, but the more corroboration you have for any ideology, the more credible the ideology becomes.

There are pro and con arguments to all ideologies, but the folks here at EvC, for the most part tend to refuse acknowledgement of the corroborative pro arguments which are supportive to the Biblical record.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Nighttrain, posted 11-27-2008 2:39 AM Nighttrain has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Huntard, posted 12-01-2008 12:03 PM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 47 by PaulK, posted 12-01-2008 3:44 PM Buzsaw has responded

Huntard
Member (Idle past 369 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 44 of 406 (490003)
12-01-2008 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Buzsaw
12-01-2008 10:52 AM


Re: Biblical Inspiration
I'll try to answer the points I can.

1. Archaeological evidence in the Gulf of Aqaba region of Nuweiba beach and sandbar which secularist archaeologists avoid and refuse to verify or refute. The National Geographic, for example has claimed that there is absolutely no evidence of the Biblical Exodus. I watched their so called "Exodus Revealed" program where they cited a traditional Mt Sinai version of the Exodus where the crossing was allegedly near the traditional mountain at the mouth of Aqaba where there was no evidence whatsoever. The ones who produced this which was essentially an undermining of the real Exodus cite where the evidence was repeatedly reminded the viewers that there was no evidence for the Exodus whatsoever, referring to the old traditional cite. They totally ignored the Nuweiba cite where all of the evidence, including the chariot debris, the entrapment terrain, the burnt topped mountain, the NT statement that it was in Arabia and the split rock as well as other evidence.

Would you mind sharing this evidence with us?

2. Lack of transitional fossil evidence.

There are many transitional fossils, and strictly speaking ALL fossils are transitional.

3. Enormity of complexity and design observed on earth and in the cosmos.

There is no design observed but by those who want there to be design.

I'll skip the prophecies, as they're not my ballpark.

7. Compatibility with 1LoT in that no energy is created from nothing. All energy, matter and forces comes from the divine omnipotent creator to be changed and managed by the designer according to his intelligent creative and manageability powers.

Of course there is absolutely NO evidence for this statement.

8. Compatibility with 2LoT in that equilibrium is effect when energy moves from creator to creation. This is effected by work of the designer. An example of this is also when Jesus healed the woman who had a blood issue affliction. When the woman was healed, Jesus noted that energy had left him and went into her ailment to effect the healing.

A few problems here. First there is NO evidence Jesus ever did or said this. Second the 2lot deals with movement of heat, not "energy".

9. Observance of cultures comparing Biblical cultures with pagan and secularist cultures where the more blessed cultures are those who follow Biblical principles and guidelines.

Oh yes, ancient Egypt wasn't prosperous at all, neither were ancient Babylon, ancient Greece or ancient Rome....Oh wait they were, and to top it off, after Rome adopted Christianity, it fell....Need I say more?

As I have always contended, it's not that each of the above proves the Biblical record, but that when you corroborate all of these, not to mention many other evidences which I've not cited, you have evidences supportive to the inspiration of the Biblical record.

And as I hope I've shown you, there isn;t any evidence for ANY of those claims.

There are arguments pro and con for some of the above, but the more corroboration you have for any ideology, the more credible the ideology becomes.

Actually there are only cons.

There are pro and con arguments to all ideologies, but the folks here at EvC, for the most part tend to refuse acknowledgement of the corroborative pro arguments which are supportive to the Biblical record.

What we do here every time Buz brings this up is point out that the pros aren't valid and that there are many cons. Buz however doesn't like this and chooses to ignore it.


I hunt for the truth
This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Buzsaw, posted 12-01-2008 10:52 AM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Brian, posted 12-01-2008 1:14 PM Huntard has not yet responded
 Message 48 by Buzsaw, posted 12-01-2008 4:04 PM Huntard has responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3033 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 45 of 406 (490007)
12-01-2008 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Huntard
12-01-2008 12:03 PM


Re: Biblical Inspiration
Would you mind sharing this evidence with us?

You really will regret the day you asked this question! ROFLMAO

Buz has been suckered into believing the garbage on Ron Wyatt's website. Poor Ron has passed away, but his hangers on continue to cheat people out of money for their embarrassing videos and booklets.

There is no evidence for the Exodus, Buz goes on about a chariot wheel at the bottom of the Red Sea, which has never been recovered, and may not even be a chariot wheel, and suddenly everything in the Book of Exodus is magically true. Forget that the Bible never claims that the Israelites crossed the Red Sea, that really doesn't matter.

Good luck with this one BTW, this garbage supplied by Buz has been completely deconstructed and shown to be crap by many people here at EvC, but he keeps trotting it out every now and then.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Huntard, posted 12-01-2008 12:03 PM Huntard has not yet responded

  
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