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Author Topic:   Anything Divine in the Bible?
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 46 of 406 (490010)
12-01-2008 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Peg
12-01-2008 1:40 AM


Re: read again
some people back then obviously chose to be slaves, so it must not have been as bad as it seems... You are talking like slavery was torture when quite obviously it wasnt.
ROTFL. Oooh, pick me I want to be a slave! Are you fkg kidding me? You think people actually wanted to be slaves! Why don't you go tell an African American that his ancestors wanted to be slaves and it wasn't all that bad. Why, I can't see what all the fuss of the Civil War was over?
I have a homework assignment:
1. Read Roots by Alex Haley, also watch the series
2. Here is another good read "American Slavery: 1619-1877"
3. Watch the movie Sparticus
4. Read your own damn bible
By the way, I know some of these are stories are slightly fictionalized but they should give you a rough idea how bad slavery was and is.
Also if slavery is such a blessing why don't you come and be my slave for free. I could use some slave labor. I need my deck stained and my garage reorganized.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Peg, posted 12-01-2008 1:40 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Peg, posted 12-02-2008 2:25 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 47 of 406 (490011)
12-01-2008 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Buzsaw
12-01-2008 10:52 AM


Re: Biblical Inspiration
Of course as you know most of these have already been adequately refuted and detailed discussion of most is off topic.
quote:
35, 36 = Prophecy of Edom/modern Palestinians, descendents of Essau and Ishmael where these people would be claiming two nations including the Jewish holy cites such as the Temple Mount.
Obviously you feel that the God is too stupid to tell the difference between ancient Edomites and modern Palestinians. As well as being not bright enough to understand modern weapons.
The only thing you are proving is that you aren't a Christian. No Christian would mock God the way you do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Buzsaw, posted 12-01-2008 10:52 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Buzsaw, posted 12-01-2008 4:22 PM PaulK has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 406 (490013)
12-01-2008 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Huntard
12-01-2008 12:03 PM


Re: Biblical Inspiration
Huntard writes:
I'll skip the prophecies, as they're not my ballpark.
So you admit your ignorance concerning the most significant evidences of the Biblical record.
Of course there is absolutely NO evidence for this statement.
My point was that since the corroborating evidences lend support to the Biblical record, if it is true the hypothesis is scientifically compatible to the basic laws of energy relative to none being created and of equilibrium.
Huntard writes:
A few problems here. First there is NO evidence Jesus ever did or said this. Second the 2LoT deals with movement of heat, not "energy".
1. There is corroborative evidence to the Biblical record, archaeological evidence to the prophecy being a supernatural foretelling, i.e. the Dead Sea Scrolls.
2. There is historical evidence to the crucifixion.
3. Heat is a form of energy.
Marine biologist Lennart Moller, who used his marine research vessel and equipment to photograph and explore the Nuweiba site followed up on evidence which the late Ron Wyatt, explorer of the region with scientific research of the evidence of the discovery. His book "The Exodus Revealed" and his video "The Exodus Video" have been debated in the EvC archives if you care to do a on site search. You can also Google up evidence on this. There are sites which show portions of the video.
Oh yes, ancient Egypt wasn't prosperous at all, neither were ancient Babylon, ancient Greece or ancient Rome....Oh wait they were, and to top it off, after Rome adopted Christianity, it fell....Need I say more?
These, like some Islamic and other pagan nations were rich but the folks on the streets didn't fare all that well. They were often oppressed by ruthless dictators. The same could be said for Israel when they departed from Biblical principles.
What we do here every time Buz brings this up is point out that the pros aren't valid and that there are many cons. Buz however doesn't like this and chooses to ignore it.
How can you make such false claims when in fact you admit to ignorance of the most significant evidences and when you propose weak arguments which fail to significantly refute?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Huntard, posted 12-01-2008 12:03 PM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Huntard, posted 12-01-2008 5:13 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 406 (490014)
12-01-2008 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by PaulK
12-01-2008 3:44 PM


Re: Biblical Inspiration
PaulK writes:
Obviously you feel that the God is too stupid to tell the difference between ancient Edomites and modern Palestinians. As well as being not bright enough to understand modern weapons.
1. Pray tell then, from what ancient people did the majority of East Bank Palestinians descend and where are the descendents of Edom (descendants of Esau and Ishmael) today?
2. The weapons thing being debatable, how about the rest of the prophecies of Ezekiel 35 to 39 and the significance of them relative to modern history in the region? You're citing the only questionable aspects when in fact all of the rest of the prophecies are unquestionably significant to fulfillment. The question remains how much detail was revealed to the prophet relative to description of weaponry and how much was assumed by the prophet when speaking the prophecy. There are just far too many significant fulfilled details to wave this off as fable or contemporary to the day they were written.
As to your judgment concerning alledgment that my Christianity is bogus, judge not that you be not judged. Just because we disagree does not mean that I'm not a Christian. I take that as a personal off topic insult. If you want to discuss the legitimacy of my Christianity you can propose a topic on that.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by PaulK, posted 12-01-2008 3:44 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by PaulK, posted 12-01-2008 5:07 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 60 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-03-2008 10:55 AM Buzsaw has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 50 of 406 (490019)
12-01-2008 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Buzsaw
12-01-2008 4:22 PM


Re: Biblical Inspiration
quote:
1. Pray tell then, from what ancient people did the majority of East Bank Palestinians descend and where are the descendents of Edom (descendants of Esau and Ishmael) today?
As you yourself admitted they aren't specifically Edomite. The East Bank would seem to have more to do with Moab or Ammon than Edom (which is South of the Jordan). And of course, Gaza, the Philistine city, is an important Palestinian settlement. And as I pointed out in the original thread the Edomites had been converted to Judaism by the time they disappeared from history - the Palestinian Jews may have stronger Edomite ancestry than the Palestinians.
If God meant to send a message to modern Palestinians he REALLY screwed up.
quote:
2. The weapons thing being debatable...
No, it isn't.
quote:
...how about the rest of the prophecies of Ezekiel 35 to 39 and the significance of them relative to modern history in the region?
There's nothing much there.
quote:
You're citing the only questionable aspects when in fact all of the rest of the prophecies are unquestionably significant to fulfillment.
I only need to cite the material that proves that you are arguing that God is an idiot.
quote:
The question remains how much detail was revealed to the prophet relative to description of weaponry and how much was assumed by the prophet when speaking the prophecy
According to Ezekiel the words came direct from God. As you would know if you bothered to read it. Or even the previous thread.
quote:
As to your judgment concerning alledgment that my Christianity is bogus, judge not that you be not judged. Just because we disagree does not mean that I'm not a Christian.
Of course it isn't that we disagree. It's the fact that you openly mock God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Buzsaw, posted 12-01-2008 4:22 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 51 of 406 (490021)
12-01-2008 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Buzsaw
12-01-2008 4:04 PM


Re: Biblical Inspiration
Buzsaw writes:
So you admit your ignorance concerning the most significant evidences of the Biblical record.
Yes, I don't know a lot about prophecies, however from what I've read here on this site, I'll say that there doesn't seem to be ANY prophecy that was ever fulfilled.
My point was that since the corroborating evidences lend support to the Biblical record, if it is true the hypothesis is scientifically compatible to the basic laws of energy relative to none being created and of equilibrium.
No. There is NO evidence for the most important events in the bible, so why should we take your word for it that this is true then?
1. There is corroborative evidence to the Biblical record, archaeological evidence to the prophecy being a supernatural foretelling, i.e. the Dead Sea Scrolls.
Don't know about prophecies, however, again, my experience on this site make me lean to no confirmed prophecies.
2. There is historical evidence to the crucifixion.
Now this I DO know. There is NO evidence for the crucifixion of Jesus WHATSOEVER.
3. Heat is a form of energy
Yes, but not all energy is heat.
Marine biologist Lennart Moller, who used his marine research vessel and equipment to photograph and explore the Nuweiba site followed up on evidence which the late Ron Wyatt, explorer of the region with scientific research of the evidence of the discovery. His book "The Exodus Revealed" and his video "The Exodus Video" have been debated in the EvC archives if you care to do a on site search. You can also Google up evidence on this. There are sites which show portions of the video.
Based on what Brian wrote, this video will depict something that might look like a chariot wheel. You say the ENTIRE story of Exodus is true, because somewhere in a sea there lies something that could be a chariot wheel? Now, let me be very clear here. Even if this is a chariot wheel, it proves ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. I will see if I can find the video and watch it, however.
These, like some Islamic and other pagan nations were rich but the folks on the streets didn't fare all that well. They were often oppressed by ruthless dictators. The same could be said for Israel when they departed from Biblical principles.
Oh? so the kings and emperors of the dark ages were saints? They were all Christians you see, and so was almost everybody else back then. I still would rather live as a citizen in Ancient Egypt then as a citizen in the dark ages.
How can you make such false claims when in fact you admit to ignorance of the most significant evidences and when you propose weak arguments which fail to significantly refute?
I admit to ignorance of this subject, I can however recall other prophecy threads in which you participated, and you were utterly disproven time and again.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Buzsaw, posted 12-01-2008 4:04 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by PaulK, posted 12-01-2008 5:33 PM Huntard has not replied
 Message 53 by iano, posted 12-01-2008 5:51 PM Huntard has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 52 of 406 (490030)
12-01-2008 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Huntard
12-01-2008 5:13 PM


Re: Biblical Inspiration
The "archaeological evidence" from Aqaba that you will find in the Moeller thread is mainly:
Coral formations that look as if they might have grown around wheel and axles. Nothing to date them to ancient Egypt - so far as I could tell anything inside could be 20th Century.
(There are also claims that the coral formations contained iron - which dates them to be too late for Wyatt and Moeller).
A rather suspicious photograph of what is claimed to be a gold plated chariot wheel. There's nothing to scale it. It was only seen by Wyatt and his "expedition". There's nothing to scale it. It looks planted. Wyatt claimed to have found it with a dowsing device (and the Wyatt camp refuse to even admit to the fact that it IS a dowsing device).
You will also discover:
Strong evidence that Wyatt was a faker and a fraud.
Proof that Moeller is completely incompetent as a historian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Huntard, posted 12-01-2008 5:13 PM Huntard has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 53 of 406 (490032)
12-01-2008 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Huntard
12-01-2008 5:13 PM


Re: Biblical Inspiration
Huntard writes:
I hunt for the truth
Against what would you calibrate your catch? So as to figure it truth, I mean?
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Huntard, posted 12-01-2008 5:13 PM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Huntard, posted 12-02-2008 1:41 AM iano has not replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 54 of 406 (490058)
12-02-2008 1:41 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by iano
12-01-2008 5:51 PM


Re: Biblical Inspiration
Iano writes:
Against what would you calibrate your catch? So as to figure it truth, I mean?
How about against reality, and what that shows us via empirical evidence?

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by iano, posted 12-01-2008 5:51 PM iano has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 55 of 406 (490062)
12-02-2008 2:25 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by DevilsAdvocate
12-01-2008 3:19 PM


Re: read again
DevilsAdvocate writes:
Also if slavery is such a blessing why don't you come and be my slave for free. I could use some slave labor. I need my deck stained and my garage reorganized.
look them up in the business directory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-01-2008 3:19 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-02-2008 7:39 AM Peg has replied

DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 56 of 406 (490086)
12-02-2008 7:39 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Peg
12-02-2008 2:25 AM


Re: read again
Myself writes:
Also if slavery is such a blessing why don't you come and be my slave for free. I could use some slave labor. I need my deck stained and my garage reorganized.
look them up in the business directory
There are slaves in the business directory? They'll do it for free?
BTW, you may chalk me up to being an AH, I really don't really care. I have been on both sides of the fence religiously. I know what Christians believe and I have read the Bible cover to cover (which many Christians have not). I find it difficult that religous zealots(not just Christians) will find any means to try to justify the unjustifiable. How can you justify slavery, child abuse, rape, murder, plunder and other attrocities found in the Bible and many times condoned or even command by God Almighty himself.
To these religious zealots double standards and hypocricy are not important as long as they can back up their faith and their beliefs. I know I use to be one.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Peg, posted 12-02-2008 2:25 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Peg, posted 12-03-2008 5:28 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 57 of 406 (490221)
12-03-2008 5:28 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by DevilsAdvocate
12-02-2008 7:39 AM


Re: read again
devilsadvocate writes:
There are slaves in the business directory? They'll do it for free?
slaves worked in exchange for food and lodging...same way we do today
a hebrew slave could have his whole family fed and housed which is why many chose to be slaves.
of course im not condoning it, but i dont believe that God condoned it either. People are going to do what they want to do. Did God force anyone to make people into slaves??? no
just look at the teachings and words of Jesus Christ and you'll see that he had the mind of God...love your neighbor as yourself...love is the dominating nature of God, Jesus clearly showed this

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-02-2008 7:39 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-03-2008 9:13 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 59 by Coragyps, posted 12-03-2008 9:51 AM Peg has replied

DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 58 of 406 (490247)
12-03-2008 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Peg
12-03-2008 5:28 AM


Re: read again
Peg writes:
slaves worked in exchange for food and lodging...same way we do today
We have legalized slavery today? Where? From my understanding, slavery is outlawed in nearly every country in the world.
By definition, slaves are involuntarily property of other human beings. They have no rights, no personal property, receives no compensation (except food, lodging and bare essentials so they can live), cannot leave or travel without permission, are subject to the whims and desires of their masters, etc.
Exodus 21:20-21 writes:
If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property.
Leviticus 22:11 writes:
But if a priest buys a slave as his property with his money, that one may eat of it, and those who are born in his house may eat of his food.
Peg writes:
a hebrew slave could have his whole family fed and housed which is why many chose to be slaves.
You are right, a "slave" that was a Hebrew was more like an indentured servant with certain rights bestowed. However, these rights did not pertain to non-Hebrew slaves. As to how these Hebrew and non-Hebrew slaves were actually treated, it is uncertain. However, based on the dialog of the OT it does not seem to be that much different from their neighboring countries as I pointed out earlier from the Code of Hammurabi.
Peg writes:
of course im not condoning it, but i dont believe that God condoned it either. People are going to do what they want to do. Did God force anyone to make people into slaves??? no
Definition of condone: "to overlook something illegal, objectionable, or the like". Do you consider slavery acceptable and/or legal? Than why are you letting god off the hook? He permited it. He could have made commandment #11 Thou shalt not take slaves or permit any Hebrew to become a slave. But not even once did he ever command the Israelites not to practice slavery.
just look at the teachings and words of Jesus Christ and you'll see that he had the mind of God...love your neighbor as yourself...love is the dominating nature of God, Jesus clearly showed this
This altruist behavior is not confined to Christianity. It is found in many religions, philosophies and cultures throughout history as seen here:
Buddhism writes:
Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful. (Udana-Varga 5:18)
Confusionism writes:
Do not do to others what you do not want them to do to you. (Analects 15:23)
Ancient Egyptian writes:
Do for one who may do for you, that you may cause him thus to do. (Tale of the Eloquent Peasant, 109 - 110 Translated by R.B. Parkinson dating to 1970 to 1640 BCE)
Hinduism writes:
This is the sum of duty: do not do to others what would cause pain if done to you. (Mahabharata 5:1517)
Islam writes:
None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself. (Number 13 of Imam "Al-Nawawi's Forty Hadiths)
Jainism writes:
One should treat all creatures in the world as one would like to be treated. (Sutrakritanga 1.11.33)
Judaism writes:
What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbour. This is the whole Torah; all the rest is commentary. Go and learn it.(Talmud, Shabbath 31a)
Taoism writes:
Regard your neighbor's gain as your own gain, and your neighbor's loss as your own loss. (T'ai Shang Kan Ying P'ien)
Taoism writes:
The sage has no interest of his own, but takes the interests of the people as his own. He is kind to the kind; he is also kind to the unkind: for Virtue is kind. He is faithful to the faithful; he is also faithful to the unfaithful: for Virtue is faithful. (Tao Teh Ching)
Zoroasterism writes:
That nature alone is good which refrains from doing unto another whatsoever is not good for itself. Dadistan-i-dinik 94:5
also
Zoroasterism writes:
Whatever is disagreeable to yourself do not do unto others. (Shayast-na-Shayast 13:29)
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Peg, posted 12-03-2008 5:28 AM Peg has not replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 59 of 406 (490251)
12-03-2008 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Peg
12-03-2008 5:28 AM


Re: read again
just look at the teachings and words of Jesus Christ and you'll see that he had the mind of God...love your neighbor as yourself...love is the dominating nature of God, Jesus clearly showed this
"Clearly" certainly doesn't fit in there....the teachings of Jesus run toward the diametrical opposite of the god that is described in Deuteronomy or Joshua. The "mind of God" described back there is the mind of a sociopathic tyrant, not that of a "love your neighbor" sort of guy at all. It still amazes me how Christians try to avoid this glaring inconsistency, and even go on about "God is unchanging." Strange.

"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Peg, posted 12-03-2008 5:28 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by jaywill, posted 12-03-2008 4:37 PM Coragyps has replied
 Message 62 by Peg, posted 12-04-2008 6:26 AM Coragyps has not replied

DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 60 of 406 (490261)
12-03-2008 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Buzsaw
12-01-2008 4:22 PM


Re: Biblical Inspiration
Buzzsaw writes:
There are just far too many significant fulfilled details to wave this off as fable or contemporary to the day they were written.
Such as?
How do we know these details where not filled in after the fact? The earliest copies of the writings of the OT i.e. the Dead Sea Scrolls date back to at the latest to the second century BC, well after all the events in the OT took place. This was more than ample time for the Jewish scribes and scholars to write in their 'fulfilled' prophecies after historical events took place.
As far as prophecies dealing with Jesus, who knows how much the early Christians concocted of this story to fit in with the earlier Jewish prophecies of a messiah? Historical record is very subject to outright fabrication and vaticinium ex eventu (writing about events that have already happened as if the author were living before the events took place). Therefore unless a historical writing is substantiated from a wide variety of other contemporary (at the same time) external sources it should be treated with skepticism.
Do you believe Nostradamus' writings as well? They also incorporate such vague generalities that they could be applied to just about any event in history. The same is true of the prophecies of the OT and NT. If not, than why pray tell do we get a slew of religious nuts predicting every 10 years that the world is going to end.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Buzsaw, posted 12-01-2008 4:22 PM Buzsaw has not replied

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