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Author Topic:   Seashells on tops of mountains.
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 136 of 343 (428876)
10-17-2007 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by RAZD
10-17-2007 10:30 PM


Why Are Creationists?
If this is the level of intellect, curiosity, education and honesty you bring to the debate ...
... then he may be a creationist.
Damnit, even if he has forgotten all the physics he learnt in high school, which evidently he has, then he could still have looked it up.

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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 137 of 343 (428907)
10-18-2007 3:28 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by TheWay
10-17-2007 3:10 PM


Re: When did Lithification Occur during Flood Year?
iceage writes:
bioturbation rules out rapid burial
TheWay writes:
I honestly fail to see how. Your explanation is:
You cannot have organism burrowing, nesting, disturbing layers when rapidly being covered by tens, hundreds or thousands of feet of overburden.
Yet I wonder how you know this? I am not saying your wrong, it just seems that it could be possible.
Active animal burrows only extend a few inches to maybe a foot from the bottom of a seabed. This can be observed in modern environments. These animals could not burrow under 10's, 100's or 1000's of feet of sediment due to the pressure , the subsequent resistance to burrowing and the lack of oxygen. If there is any evidence to the contrary let's hear it.
The two excellent images of worm casts in the prior post are from two different formations in a sequence separated by several hundred feet. Not only that, there are signs of biotrubation several thousand above those!
It is difficult to support a claim that these animals were extremely rapidly deposited in this deposition column all the while be rained down my massive sediments and with supposed high energy current flows.
Just what do you propose in feet/day would be required to deposit the massive sedimentary deposits of the Grand Canyon, Rocky Mountains, or Himalayas in a flood of a few months or weeks?
Iceage writes:
To create metamorphic rock you need pressure and heat
TheWay writes:
Could tectonic plates slamming into each other create enough pressure and heat?
Depending on the grade you also need time - but I will leave that for another day.
Think about this for a while. What is being proposed is this sequence of events.
Deposition, (sometimes bioturbation), lithification, (sometimes metamorphic conversion) and massive uplift of the order of miles - in just how many months or years?
I say just invoke the supernatural and done with it!
iceage writes:
And remember these sediments have to be lithified/metamorphosed prior to uplift so there is an order sequence of events that are required each involving durations of time.
TheWay writes:
Perhaps they do not? I am only asking you to please humor me, Is it possible?
I say this simply because a rigid structure is necessary to form vertical peaks and ridges like Everest or the Canadian Rockies. Also a formation cannot become metamorphic once uncovered or near the surface.
Forget the heat generated by fault slip it was a diversion I should not have brought up. And we or I will get rightfully whacked by the mods.

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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4190 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 138 of 343 (429099)
10-18-2007 3:34 PM


I said I apply reason and logic to all the corroborating evidence for the Biblical historical record. Since you vehemently deny that we Bible-creos use reason and logic, there's no logical reason for us to discuss it.
what was asked was explain the reason and logic.

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4190 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 139 of 343 (429104)
10-18-2007 3:37 PM


What do you do with the corroborative evidence of the credibility of the Biblical historical record? Perhaps if you took the time to assimilate and assemble it all, you would think about reconsideration.
OK where do I find that?

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 140 of 343 (429131)
10-18-2007 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by bluescat48
10-18-2007 3:37 PM


request
If you use the Little Green Reply button at the bottome right of a message, it will link your reply. Please consider that so folk have a clue what message it is you are replying to.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 141 of 343 (442374)
12-20-2007 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Cold Foreign Object
10-04-2007 9:02 PM


bump for Ray
From Message 53 - the unanswered part is in yellow:
At face value, seashells found at great heights is evidence of the Great Flood.
How do you explain the same evidence?
At face value the explanation is that they grew in the sedimentary deposit before it was lithified, while it was shallow water, and then they died, were fossilized when the sediment was lithified, and then transported to the location where they were found by plate tectonics.
At face value the clams in question are more than a year old, every single one of them, so they could not have grown during your hypothetical flood event. None of the clams found as fossils anywhere on earth could have grown during your hypothetical flood event.
How do you explain that evidence?
http://oceanlink.island.net/ask/mollusca.html
http://www.chesapeakebay.net/info/hard_clam.cfm
Those rings on the shells are growth rings, ray, annual growth rings (you know like tree rings). You don't even get past the larval stage before the big dryout, so where do all those OLD clams come from ray?

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 142 of 343 (490067)
12-02-2008 3:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by iceage
10-01-2007 2:17 AM


Off topic material hidden. Use "Peek" to read.
Here is what a textbook on geology says: “From Pre-Cambrian times down to the present, the perpetual process of building and destroying mountains has continued. ... Not only have mountains originated from the bottom of vanished seas, but they have often been submerged long after their formation, and then re-elevated.”2
Off topic material hidden. Use "Peek" to read.
mountains rise and fall and wen we find sea shells on the tops of mountains, we see evidence of that process
Edited by AdminNosy, : No reason given.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 143 of 343 (490093)
12-02-2008 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by Peg
12-02-2008 3:39 AM


Now let's talk about time
Thanks Peg,
mountains rise and fall and wen we find sea shells on the tops of mountains, we see evidence of that process
Fair enough, that is what plate tectonics shows ... and the fossils in ordered layers on those mountains ... with evidence of the succession of life from generation to generation ... all showing mature development of the whole marine environment in which they lived, with roots and burrows as well as shells.
if the bible really is the word of God, you would expect it have some insight into the natural world.
So how long do you think this takes?
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

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obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4116 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 144 of 343 (490170)
12-02-2008 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Peg
12-02-2008 3:39 AM


Off topic material hidden. Use "Peek" to read.
Be careful that this message doesn't shoot you off on an off-topic tangent. - Adminnemooseus}
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Topic drift alert message.
Edited by AdminNosy, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Peg, posted 12-02-2008 3:39 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
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mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 145 of 343 (490218)
12-03-2008 5:08 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by obvious Child
12-02-2008 9:05 PM


Edited- Off Topic
Edited by mark24, : No reason given.

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

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Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 146 of 343 (490219)
12-03-2008 5:12 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by obvious Child
12-02-2008 9:05 PM


you're right
the bible is not a science book and doesnt claim to be
but when it does touch on science, its always accurate

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by bluescat48, posted 12-03-2008 6:24 AM Peg has replied
 Message 148 by RAZD, posted 12-03-2008 6:31 AM Peg has replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4190 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 147 of 343 (490226)
12-03-2008 6:24 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by Peg
12-03-2008 5:12 AM


Off topic material hidden. Use "Peek" to read.
Edited by AdminNosy, : No reason given.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 148 of 343 (490227)
12-03-2008 6:31 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by Peg
12-03-2008 5:12 AM


Thanks Peg,
the bible is not a science book and doesnt claim to be
but when it does touch on science, its always accurate
So when it matches something we know from science it is accurate, and when it doesn't, then that is because it doesn't claim to be a science book? How can you tell if this is just a ad hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy or not?
I noticed you did not answer about the length of time needed to form the marine deposits on mountaintops - is that one of the areas where it doesn't claim to be a science book?
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : /

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Peg, posted 12-03-2008 5:12 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 149 of 343 (490228)
12-03-2008 6:53 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by bluescat48
12-03-2008 6:24 AM


Off topic material hidden. Use "Peek" to read.
Edited by AdminNosy, : off topic hidden

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by bluescat48, posted 12-03-2008 6:24 AM bluescat48 has replied

Replies to this message:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 150 of 343 (490230)
12-03-2008 6:58 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by RAZD
12-03-2008 6:31 AM


actually i recall mentioning how mountains rise and fall of mountains into the sea... the earth is always moving as we know and there are are mountains deep down in the ocean beds and some have been pushed up to above the surface
i also posted a scripture that described this process
seriously, i dont claim to understand it all, but i am 100% convinced that their is a Creator and the bible is his word and hence I would always first assume that scientists may have the wrong idea... they have been known to change their opinions on things as their knowledge increases
just as a non believer would do in reverse when it comes to creation

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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