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Author Topic:   Have evolutionists documented the formation of NEW genetic material? (Lost Thread)
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2127 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 16 of 19 (490049)
12-01-2008 10:06 PM


New genetic material
The thread title involves new genetic material. I posted a thread dealing with an article with information on that very subject. The title is Recipes for life: How genes evolve, and the article it discusses is at NewScientist.
Given this, and a number of other scientific studies, the question of new genetic materials has been answered.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

  
CosmicChimp
Member
Posts: 311
From: Muenchen Bayern Deutschland
Joined: 06-15-2007


Message 17 of 19 (490156)
12-02-2008 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Huntard
12-01-2008 5:28 PM


I agree wholeheartedly with Coyote's post just above, so all I really want to do is nit-pick Huntard's idea of selection pressure.
It DOES still affect them, the selective pressure is just very low.
Sorry Huntard, I'm not buying this part of your post (the rest is super). Or I'm not understanding you correctly. How can the selective pressure be LOW and not HIGH? I assume that the environment is stable and the niches full. I would think that mutations would be fiercely selected against. That is, hardly any mutations (far less than in an earlier primitive environment) would become beneficial. Could you or somebody clarify this detail.
Edited by CosmicChimp, : spelling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Huntard, posted 12-01-2008 5:28 PM Huntard has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by RAZD, posted 12-02-2008 8:47 PM CosmicChimp has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 18 of 19 (490167)
12-02-2008 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by CosmicChimp
12-02-2008 7:37 PM


terms and meanings
Hey CosmicChimp,
How can the selective pressure be LOW and not HIGH? I assume that the environment is stable and the niches full. I would think that mutations would be fiercely selected against.
What we have are two different parts of the equation: the pressure to survive and the pressure to breed.
In stable ecosystems there is less pressure to survive - the average organism is basically fit to live and breed in that ecosystem - so the main pressure is to breed. I agree with you that selection would tend to favor the existing average organism and cause selection for stasis, more of the same, while eliminating extremes. Think of a bell curve and variation about a mean, with small numbers the more extreme they are. There is little chance that the population as a whole will go extinct however, so this is regarded as low selection pressure.
In a changed ecosystem (or a new one that has been invaded) there is pressure to survive, with the population numbers dropping due to failures to survive depending on the severity of the change. In this instance survival is critical and breeding is less selective, so this will select for more variation among the survivors. In this case you will have selection for punctuational changes to adapt to the new ecosystem. Think of that bell curve again and shift the "ecosystem adapted organisms" point from the center average off to one side, towards those extreme variation individuals in low numbers. In this case there is a chance that the whole population will go extinct if the change is severe enough, hence this is generally regarded as high selection pressure.
Of course those extreme variations at the edges of the bell curves for all the hereditary traits are where the new mutations fit in to the program to introduce new features, so they are not likely to be seen in populations in stasis compared to populations undergoing population survival pressures.
Another way for these "extreme variation" features to become mainstream is for the population to diverge into a second, similar but different ecosystem where those features are beneficial. In this case the earlier diversification of the original population enables members of the following generations to take the opportunity to live in a different ecosystem. You can see this in ring species such as the asian greenish warbler where small genetic changes from subpopulation to subpopulation result in two subpopulations that do not interbreed even though they occupy the same ecosystem: they no longer recognize the other population as potential mates due to genetic difference for
  • mating song
  • coloration
    Both these populations evolved from a common ancestral population, as evidenced by their interbreeding with the other neighboring varieties, each a little different from the next, and thus their being different means that one or the other has "new genetic material" ... and no one population contains all the variations seen in each of the subpopulations.
    Enjoy.
    Edited by RAZD, : added topical comment
    Edited by RAZD, : added last
    Edited by RAZD, : duplicate word word

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  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 17 by CosmicChimp, posted 12-02-2008 7:37 PM CosmicChimp has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 19 by CosmicChimp, posted 12-02-2008 10:30 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

      
    CosmicChimp
    Member
    Posts: 311
    From: Muenchen Bayern Deutschland
    Joined: 06-15-2007


    Message 19 of 19 (490183)
    12-02-2008 10:30 PM
    Reply to: Message 18 by RAZD
    12-02-2008 8:47 PM


    Re: terms and meanings
    Good post, thanks. I get it now, but I still do not see the logic of fitting the normally stable factor (ecosystem/environment) with the variable term (low, medium or high selection pressure) especially when the species is the one doing the changing, if any at all. Of course, given the pre-existing condition of a changed (or invaded) ecosystem, the logical use of the label becomes apparent. Plus I find it lately immensely more useful to ponder biology while considering the individual (and it's individual genes or gene groups) rather than the whole species (gene pool); but you say considering the whole species prerequisite for proper use of the terminology (low, medium or high selection pressure). But I do appreciate your response as surely it must be the standard scientific conventions in use.
    Let me ask you this though, in regards to this sentence from your last post.
    In this instance survival is critical and breeding is less selective, so this will select for more variation among the survivors.
    The bold part it what I'm not understanding. How can the breeding be anything other than simply the one thing that it is, possible?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 18 by RAZD, posted 12-02-2008 8:47 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

      
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