Understanding through Discussion

QuickSearch

 EvC Forum active members: 50 (9182 total)
 3 online now: Newest Member: Wes Bailey Post Volume: Total: 918,350 Year: 5,607/9,624 Month: 13/619 Week: 2/47 Day: 1/1 Hour: 0/1

EvC Forum Science Forums The Bible: Accuracy and Inerrancy

# Noah's Ark volume calculation

Author Topic:   Noah's Ark volume calculation
Peg
Member (Idle past 5059 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008

 Message 91 of 347 (490386) 12-04-2008 5:40 AM Reply to: Message 56 by NosyNed12-03-2008 9:43 AM

Re: Kind
hi NN,
my understanding is that the biblical “kinds” seem to constitute divisions of life-forms wherein each division allows for cross-fertility. If so, then the boundary between “kinds” is to be drawn at the point where fertilization ceases to occur. ie a cow and horse cannot breed hence they are different 'kinds'
i dont know who or how the meaning of an animal 'kind' has been changed, can you give me an example?

 This message is a reply to: Message 56 by NosyNed, posted 12-03-2008 9:43 AM NosyNed has not replied

 Replies to this message: Message 92 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-04-2008 5:53 AM Peg has replied

Member (Idle past 3231 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008

 Message 92 of 347 (490388) 12-04-2008 5:53 AM Reply to: Message 91 by Peg12-04-2008 5:40 AM

Re: Kind
hi NN,
my understanding is that the biblical “kinds” seem to constitute divisions of life-forms wherein each division allows for cross-fertility. If so, then the boundary between “kinds” is to be drawn at the point where fertilization ceases to occur. ie a cow and horse cannot breed hence they are different 'kinds'
i dont know who or how the meaning of an animal 'kind' has been changed, can you give me an example?
Than this "kind" you are talking about is what most biologists would define as a species. A species is defined as organisms than can interbreed and produce offspring that themselves can interbreed. If this is true than the # of animals on the ark to repopulate the whole Earth and produce the diversity of today would not be in the thousands but rather the hundreds of thousands.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

 This message is a reply to: Message 91 by Peg, posted 12-04-2008 5:40 AM Peg has replied

 Replies to this message: Message 94 by Peg, posted 12-04-2008 6:08 AM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2643 days)
Posts: 2544
Joined: 03-24-2006

 Message 93 of 347 (490389) 12-04-2008 6:02 AM Reply to: Message 79 by ICANT12-03-2008 9:25 PM

Re: Ark Size
450x180 is, if you actually read the article, most likely an exageration. It gives other sizes.
Further, what of the HMS Orlando? The largest wooden ship ever built that we have confirmational evidence for (we cannot know if the ark was as large as claimed by the bible, nor can we know the true size of the treasure ships, as no plans or remants from which to make a guess on size exist).

 This message is a reply to: Message 79 by ICANT, posted 12-03-2008 9:25 PM ICANT has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 5059 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008

 Message 94 of 347 (490391) 12-04-2008 6:08 AM Reply to: Message 92 by DevilsAdvocate12-04-2008 5:53 AM

Re: Kind
i really dont know for sure but its something i'll certainly be looking into

 This message is a reply to: Message 92 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-04-2008 5:53 AM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

Larni
Member (Idle past 107 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005

 Message 95 of 347 (490398) 12-04-2008 7:39 AM Reply to: Message 88 by Peg12-04-2008 5:29 AM

Re: How many 'species' on the ark?
but perhaps back in noahs day, with a much lower sea level and much more land and continents closer together, animals were free to roam anywhere on the earth
But this was not the case in Noahician times. 5000 years ago the continents were in exactly the same place as they are now. A large land mass like Panaea has not been the case for hundreds of millions of years.
Not within the biblical time frame.
Why is this not apparent to you? Why do you beleive that the continents 5000 years ago where any different to what they are now?
if the story of Noah is true, then obviously all the animals he collected could be found inhis geographic location
You say 'if'! Your unsumountable problem is that there is no evidence to suggest that the Noachain story is true.
Remember: this is a science forum; you need to back up what you say with evidence. You cannot say 'if' and then continue the sentance as if it is a priori true. This is a logical fallacy.
that happened in the last 4-5 thousand years
so it in itself proves that sea levels must have been lower then they once were.
What you are doing is asserting your position without providing evidence. You are saying (without any evidence at all) that you are right. I'm not saying here that you are wrong: I'm asking you to provide evidence to suggest you are right.
Do please, provide evidence of humans walking from P.N.G. to Oz 4-5 thousand years ago.
You have fallen into the habit of many creationists attempting to debate in a science forum: you assert with 'ifs' and 'perhaps' and fail to provide evidence for your claim.
I can just as easily assert that Enki created humans by mixing his sperm with dirt to create humans. After all, if he did create us he must have had the ability to do so, and because he was around before the xian god he must have done it first, right?
This is exactly what you are doing.
Edited by Larni, : No reason given.

 This message is a reply to: Message 88 by Peg, posted 12-04-2008 5:29 AM Peg has replied

 Replies to this message: Message 109 by Peg, posted 12-05-2008 3:03 AM Larni has replied

Member (Idle past 3231 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008

 Message 96 of 347 (490412) 12-04-2008 10:17 AM Reply to: Message 88 by Peg12-04-2008 5:29 AM

Re: How many 'species' on the ark?
Peg writes:
and back to the point of how the Papua New Guinea people walked to australia... that happened in the last 4-5 thousand years
so it in itself proves that sea levels must have been lower then they once were.
The closest distance between Papua New Guinea and Australia is across the Torres Strait which is about 93 miles(150 km) wide.
The depth across the majority of the strait is from 0-30 feet (as seen here) and the stait is scattered with reefs and over 274 large and small islands some of which are still inhabited.
I doubt that people walked ALL the way across from Australia and Papua New Guinea but most certainly they could have migrated across in stages with boats without the whole sea level of the entire Pacific Ocean Basin having to be lowered.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

 This message is a reply to: Message 88 by Peg, posted 12-04-2008 5:29 AM Peg has not replied

 Replies to this message: Message 97 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-04-2008 11:27 AM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

Member (Idle past 3231 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008

 Message 97 of 347 (490419) 12-04-2008 11:27 AM Reply to: Message 96 by DevilsAdvocate12-04-2008 10:17 AM

Re: How many 'species' on the ark?
Additionally, archeological, linguistic and mitrochondrial DNA evidence support the fact that a little over 1000 years ago ancient Polynesians circumnavigated over 2000 miles of the Pacific ocean in double-hulled canoes to settle in the Hawaiian islands. This cross-ocean journey has been retraced numerous times. For example one journey was by the Hokule`a, an outrigger canoe that sailed from Hawaii to Tahiti without the use of modern instruments. Some have even voyaged all the way to New Zealand as you can read here: Voyaging Canoes Set Sail

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

 This message is a reply to: Message 96 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-04-2008 10:17 AM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

johnfolton
Suspended Member (Idle past 5721 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005

 Message 98 of 347 (490426) 12-04-2008 1:03 PM Reply to: Message 90 by DevilsAdvocate12-04-2008 5:33 AM

You were wrong about the Biblical lands being in the southern hemisphere
Never said the biblical lands were in the southern hemisphere. What would that have to do with the flood?
If you calculate Oct 17 the 40 day flood thru November which is one of the coldest months of the year. This is how all them glaciers formed suddenly all those quick frozen fossils found in the northern hemisphere. It was not till approximately late april early may that the mountain top peaks became visible. right?
In the Beginning: Compelling Evidence for Creation and the Flood - FrozenMammoths.html
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
What date does winter officially start and what date does it end?
In reality, the three-month period associated with the coldest average temperatures typically begins somewhere in late November or early December in the Northern Hemisphere.
Edited by johnfolton, : No reason given.
Edited by johnfolton, : No reason given.

 This message is a reply to: Message 90 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-04-2008 5:33 AM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

 Replies to this message: Message 99 by Coyote, posted 12-04-2008 1:12 PM johnfolton has replied

Coyote
Member (Idle past 2236 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008

 Message 99 of 347 (490427) 12-04-2008 1:12 PM Reply to: Message 98 by johnfolton12-04-2008 1:03 PM

Do you really believe this?
This is how all them glaciers formed suddenly all those quick frozen fossils found all over the world.
There is about the same chance of this idea of yours being accurate as there is of the Easter bunny laying colored eggs, i.e., none.
Seriously, do you really believe this stuff that you post, or are you just putting us on?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

 This message is a reply to: Message 98 by johnfolton, posted 12-04-2008 1:03 PM johnfolton has replied

 Replies to this message: Message 100 by johnfolton, posted 12-04-2008 1:26 PM Coyote has not replied

johnfolton
Suspended Member (Idle past 5721 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005

 Message 100 of 347 (490429) 12-04-2008 1:26 PM Reply to: Message 99 by Coyote12-04-2008 1:12 PM

Re: Do you really believe this?
There is about the same chance of this idea of yours being accurate as there is of the Easter bunny laying colored eggs, i.e., none.
Seriously, do you really believe this stuff that you post, or are you just putting us on?
The bible is inerrant the fossils found quick frozen has been found in the northern hemisphere. right?
P.S. Its not like easter bunnies are planting these fossils its just that they are there a warm tropical diet within a quickly frozen fossil. right?
In the Beginning: Compelling Evidence for Creation and the Flood - Frozen Mammoths

 This message is a reply to: Message 99 by Coyote, posted 12-04-2008 1:12 PM Coyote has not replied

 Replies to this message: Message 101 by Huntard, posted 12-04-2008 1:32 PM johnfolton has not replied Message 102 by onifre, posted 12-04-2008 1:48 PM johnfolton has not replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2425 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008

 Message 101 of 347 (490430) 12-04-2008 1:32 PM Reply to: Message 100 by johnfolton12-04-2008 1:26 PM

Re: Do you really believe this?
The bible is inerrant
The bible is anything BUT inerrant.
the fossils found quick frozen has been found in the northern hemisphere. right?
In the northern hemisphere, yes, but far from quickly frozen, though nowhere is this mentioned in the bible. Oh and those aren't fossils.
Edited by Huntard, : Thanks to Ned, now I don't look like a loony

I hunt for the truth

 This message is a reply to: Message 100 by johnfolton, posted 12-04-2008 1:26 PM johnfolton has not replied

 Replies to this message: Message 104 by NosyNed, posted 12-04-2008 2:13 PM Huntard has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 3080 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008

 Message 102 of 347 (490433) 12-04-2008 1:48 PM Reply to: Message 100 by johnfolton12-04-2008 1:26 PM

Re: Do you really believe this?
johnfolton writes:
the fossils found quick frozen has been found in the northern hemisphere. right?
Wrong. Those are not fossils.
Fossils:
Fossil - Wikipedia
Types of fossils(preservation), from Wiki:
quote:
Types of preservation:
Permineralization:
A permineralized trilobite, Asaphus kowalewskiiPermineralization occurs after burial, as the empty spaces within an organism (spaces filled with liquid or gas during life) become filled with mineral-rich groundwater and the minerals precipitate from the groundwater, thus occupying the empty spaces. This process can occur in very small spaces, such as within the cell wall of a plant cell. Small scale permineralization can produce very detailed fossils. For permineralization to occur, the organism must become covered by sediment soon after death or soon after the initial decaying process. The degree to which the remains are decayed when covered determines the later details of the fossil. Some fossils consist only of skeletal remains or teeth; other fossils contain traces of skin, feathers or even soft tissues. This is a form of diagenesis.
External mold of a bivalve from the Logan Formation, Lower Carboniferous, Ohio.
Casts and molds:
In some cases the original remains of the organism have been completely dissolved or otherwise destroyed. When all that is left is an organism-shaped hole in the rock, it is called an external mold. If this hole is later filled with other minerals, it is a cast. An internal mold is formed when sediments or minerals fill the internal cavity of an organism, such as the inside of a bivalve or snail.
Replacement and recrystallization:
Replacement occurs when the shell, bone or other tissue is replaced with another mineral. In some cases mineral replacement of the original shell occurs so gradually and at such fine scales that microstructural features are preserved despite the total loss of original material. A shell is said to be recrystallized when the original skeletal minerals are still present but in a different crystal form, as from aragonite to calcite.
Compression fossils:
Compression fossils, such as those of fossil ferns, are the result of chemical reduction of the complex organic molecules composing the organism's tissues. In this case the fossil consists of original material, albeit in a geochemically altered state. Often what remains is a carbonaceous film. This chemical change is an expression of diagenesis.
Bioimmuration:
The star-shaped holes (Catellocaula vallata) in this Upper Ordovician bryozoan represent a soft-bodied organism preserved by bioimmuration in the bryozoan skeleton. Bioimmuration is a type of preservation in which a skeletal organism overgrows or otherwise subsumes another organism, preserving the latter, or an impression of it, within the skeleton. Usually it is a sessile skeletal organism, such as a bryozoan or an oyster, which grows along a substrate, covering other sessile encrusters. Sometimes the bioimmured organism is soft-bodied and is then preserved in negative relief as a kind of external mold. There are also cases where an organism settles on top of a living skeletal organism which grows upwards, preserving the settler in its skeleton. Bioimmuration is known in the fossil record from the Ordovician to the Recent.
To sum up, fossilization processes proceed differently for different kinds of tissues and under different kinds of conditions.
Try following this logic,
*Something dies and fossilizes over time, that is a fossil.
*Something gets trapped under ice and freezes, that is not a fossil.

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

 This message is a reply to: Message 100 by johnfolton, posted 12-04-2008 1:26 PM johnfolton has not replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2643 days)
Posts: 2544
Joined: 03-24-2006

 Message 103 of 347 (490436) 12-04-2008 2:06 PM Reply to: Message 89 by Peg12-04-2008 5:33 AM

Re: Ark Size
Not the best article on the hypothesis, but it's the Lake Toba supervolcanic eruption.
Toba catastrophe theory - Wikipedia.

 This message is a reply to: Message 89 by Peg, posted 12-04-2008 5:33 AM Peg has not replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9008
Joined: 04-04-2003

 Message 104 of 347 (490437) 12-04-2008 2:13 PM Reply to: Message 101 by Huntard12-04-2008 1:32 PM

 This message is a reply to: Message 101 by Huntard, posted 12-04-2008 1:32 PM Huntard has replied

 Replies to this message: Message 105 by Huntard, posted 12-04-2008 2:42 PM NosyNed has replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2425 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008

 Message 105 of 347 (490439) 12-04-2008 2:42 PM Reply to: Message 104 by NosyNed12-04-2008 2:13 PM

No I hadn't, but the reply was more to the fact that Mammoths were found in the northern hemisphere, all that other stuff is just plain wrong, I think I'll go edit my reply though, people might think me a loony, thanks for pointing it out.

I hunt for the truth

 This message is a reply to: Message 104 by NosyNed, posted 12-04-2008 2:13 PM NosyNed has replied

 Replies to this message: Message 106 by NosyNed, posted 12-04-2008 2:55 PM Huntard has replied

 Date format: mm-dd-yyyy Timezone: ET (US)