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Author Topic:   "transitional" turtle found
Taz
Member (Idle past 1370 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 16 of 20 (490591)
12-06-2008 2:20 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Cluim
12-02-2008 8:59 PM


If it helps, try to think of evolution as just walking. What you refer to as "micro"evolution could be seen as taking a single step. What you refer to as "macro"evolution could be seen as taking a kazillion steps.

Nobody is claiming that you could walk from New York to California in one giant step like you implied with your very loose definition of "macro"evolution. But given enough time and enough steps, one could literally walk from New York to California. The fat man walking (aka Steve Vaught) proved this.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Cluim, posted 12-02-2008 8:59 PM Cluim has not yet responded

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 3112 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 17 of 20 (490659)
12-06-2008 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by CosmicChimp
12-02-2008 5:03 PM


Turtle Wars - the Underbelly has Arisen, its arisen indeed
I am going to try to draw a line here. And I mean that quite literally and you can follow my continuing discussion below on Zeno the Turtle and his predecessor.


Click to enlarge

We will need to be able to respond to Gould's footnote on page 725 of his "Structure of Evolutionary Theory"

quote:
At the risk of unwarrented metaphorical excursion into anthropomorphic imagery, one might contrast limited change at organismal birth with necessary change at species birth in the following manner: New metazoan organisms arise by a process of complex development, which must discourge change for reasons recognized ever since von Baer formulated his laws of embyrology (1828). At the organismal level, the new individual seperates intrinsically from the parent; how then, may this be kept sufficiently like the parent to preserve the collectivity of the population? An opposite problem attends the birth of a species. At the species level, new individuals are born by speciation, which enhances change. But species do not seperate intrinsically from their parents. They are born in fuzzy continuity. Their seperation may be difficult. They must be cast out, or they will reintegrate. Necessary change at speciation enhances this defining process of casting out from the parent. The newly born species faces a structural problem opposite from the neonatal organism's dilemma: how may the new species-individual become sufficiently unlike the parent to be cast out, thus enhancing the collectivity of the clade by adding another part? In short, the new metazoan organism forms outside the parent: how can it be kept close? The new speices seperates with difficulty from the parent: how can it be cast out?

This line was drawn for me by the making of the map on the left. It did not exist when I was collecting salamanders. I actually found one of the lightblue-colored-region-ones when it was thought this species distribution was all one(maps and pics from Peterson Field Guide).


Click to enlarge

Creationists may respond simply as two have done in the paper
http://www.icr.org/article/4125/

quote:
“While microevolutionary “speciation” of various types of snakes is not really seen as a problem by creationists; indeed, it is simply the expression of additional genetic material which was always present in snake baramins.”

Snake Hybridzation: A Case for Intrabaraminc Divesity

You can ask yourself after reading the snake paper if you think the line I cut was not coincidentally available to me. Could there be some non-microevolutioanry relationship between calligaster(prairie/mole) and alterna(gray)? The baramin paper suggested to me that these two species may be cladistically similar (by color traits phenetically).

Look for yourself.

Whether this is "added genetics" as creationists have said (inverse wise) or altered allometry as Gould contends to decouple is the query.

Let the battle of the the 1/2 shell find its scholasticism. How do deride mesoevolution?


Click to enlarge

The turtles need to tell us what was the "necessary change", whether it was a gap or a continuum and whether we can know this through geometry or arithemtic or algebra or somehowelse. There are geographic constraints on how far "outside" this may happen. Gould does not answer this angle to not get all "moses" on an arse.

Best,
Brad


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by CosmicChimp, posted 12-02-2008 5:03 PM CosmicChimp has acknowledged this reply

    
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 3112 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 18 of 20 (490662)
12-06-2008 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Cluim
12-02-2008 7:24 PM


Color commentary
The site that RAZD linked above originally ended with
quote:
The authors say that this turtle species probably lived in water and that their stomach shell kept them safe from predators below while they were swimming.

Later, they added this picture
I will call "ZenoTheTurtle" from here on out


Click to enlarge

indicating that they were clearly thinking in terms of selection micro wise.

Instead I will suggest that the the turtle shell arose via a process related to this image instead, I am naming "GrandaddyZenoTheTurtle".


Click to enlarge

This will not necessarily be at odds with creationist interpretaion of intrabaraminic diversity in snakes relying on a drive through speciation neontologically ((even if Gould is mistaken) rather than simple selection from predation as the link suggests).
This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Cluim, posted 12-02-2008 7:24 PM Cluim has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by anglagard, posted 12-07-2008 3:46 AM Brad McFall has responded

    
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2185
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 19 of 20 (490671)
12-07-2008 3:46 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Brad McFall
12-06-2008 11:25 PM


Re: Color commentary
Brad McFall writes:

This will not necessarily be at odds with creationist interpretaion of intrabaraminic diversity in snakes relying on a drive through speciation neontologically ((even if Gould is mistaken) rather than simple selection from predation as the link suggests).

So where is the shell on the belly of snakes as one would be in favor of a creationist interpretation of intrabarametric diversity through speciation neontologically (even if Gould was mistaken) rather than any simple selection inhibiting ground-based parasitism?

Edited by anglagard, : wouldn't you?

Edited by anglagard, : see above


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon

The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Brad McFall, posted 12-06-2008 11:25 PM Brad McFall has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Brad McFall, posted 12-07-2008 8:44 AM anglagard has not yet responded

    
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 3112 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 20 of 20 (490681)
12-07-2008 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by anglagard
12-07-2008 3:46 AM


Re:lipid solidification
First I would have to talk about lipid content changes in the skins of amphibians to reptiles then..

How bout the use by squamates "of" the belly. Snakes to move the belly - locomotion (look at scales and muscles there) and lizards to move the belly away from insects and other parasites that pinch etc, heading for dryer regions than turtles which stayed closer to the land/water boundary than squamates?

This would have to be verified by lipid skin contents. I do not know if it is. These are the "creeping things", I think, not the parasite equally adapted to its host as a shapless bag with chemicals.

Brad

Edited by Brad McFall, : spelling

Edited by Brad McFall, : two words in a sentence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by anglagard, posted 12-07-2008 3:46 AM anglagard has not yet responded

    
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