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EvC Forum Science Forums The Bible: Accuracy and Inerrancy

# Noah's Ark volume calculation

Author Topic:   Noah's Ark volume calculation
killinghurts
Member (Idle past 5129 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 04-23-2008

 Message 136 of 347 (490825) 12-08-2008 9:47 PM Reply to: Message 135 by NosyNed12-08-2008 8:48 PM

Hi NosyNed, I agree that your reasoning is sound, but currently I'm trying to figure out where the calculation differs...
The logic I am putting forward in my calculation is:
I have x amount of space, and y number of animals, therefore the amount of space per animal is x/y.
The logic biblestudy.com puts forward is:
I have x number of animals each taking up y amount of space, therefore the total amount of space required is x * y.
And when we do the calculation using real numbers, they are different.
I;m wondering, looking at it from a purely mathematical perspective, which approach is correct?

 This message is a reply to: Message 135 by NosyNed, posted 12-08-2008 8:48 PM NosyNed has not replied

 Replies to this message: Message 144 by Peg, posted 12-09-2008 4:34 AM killinghurts has replied

killinghurts
Member (Idle past 5129 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 04-23-2008

 Message 137 of 347 (490828) 12-08-2008 10:33 PM

Here's another one.
This time we seem to have 50,000 animals.
Could Noah's Ark really hold all the animals that were supposed to be preserved from Flood? - ChristianAnswers.Net
I'm really interested to know which approach at calculating size requirements is correct, and why.

killinghurts
Member (Idle past 5129 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 04-23-2008

 Message 138 of 347 (490829) 12-08-2008 10:38 PM

Some late breaking information:
Did Noah take dinosaurs on the Ark? (Part 1) (The Great Dinosaur Mystery and the Bible) - ChristianAnswers.Net
This suggests that Dinosaurs *were* actually included in the ark, and therefore should be included in our calculations.
Thankyou!

bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4325 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007

 Message 139 of 347 (490833) 12-09-2008 12:07 AM Reply to: Message 134 by killinghurts12-08-2008 7:59 PM

the 11.125cuft given in your post equates to a cube ~1.4 ft per edge. That might work if all the animals were cubes 1.4 ft x 1.4ft x 1.4ft, otherwise back to square 1

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

 This message is a reply to: Message 134 by killinghurts, posted 12-08-2008 7:59 PM killinghurts has replied

 Replies to this message: Message 140 by killinghurts, posted 12-09-2008 12:16 AM bluescat48 has replied Message 142 by NosyNed, posted 12-09-2008 2:49 AM bluescat48 has replied

killinghurts
Member (Idle past 5129 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 04-23-2008

 Message 140 of 347 (490834) 12-09-2008 12:16 AM Reply to: Message 139 by bluescat4812-09-2008 12:07 AM

You are correct, I wasn't thinking using real life examples.
This means that the statement from biblestudy.org
quote:
Based on railroad industry figures a railroad stockcar can hold 240 sheep and each stock car has a capacity of 2670 ft3. Therefore each sheep requires 11.125 ft3.
must (at best) be stretching the truth... right?
EDIT: Actually it has to be an outright lie.. how can a sheep fit in a 1.4 x 1.4 x 1.4 container?
Edited by killinghurts, : added content

 This message is a reply to: Message 139 by bluescat48, posted 12-09-2008 12:07 AM bluescat48 has replied

 Replies to this message: Message 141 by bluescat48, posted 12-09-2008 12:32 AM killinghurts has not replied

bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4325 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
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 Message 141 of 347 (490835) 12-09-2008 12:32 AM Reply to: Message 140 by killinghurts12-09-2008 12:16 AM

The sheep would have a major problem, but just think of the problem of squeezing a cow into that 1.4 x 1.4 x 1.4.', or worse still an elephant.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

 This message is a reply to: Message 140 by killinghurts, posted 12-09-2008 12:16 AM killinghurts has not replied

NosyNed
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 Message 142 of 347 (490845) 12-09-2008 2:49 AM Reply to: Message 139 by bluescat4812-09-2008 12:07 AM

fail!
1.4 cubed is less than 3. Back to remedial arithmetic for you.
11.125 is a bit less than the cube of 2.24. Which I can see fitting a sheep into if you change it a bit from a cube and crowd the sheep.
One question to be answered is what is the average size of the animals considered. My guess is that it is closer to a bunny rabbit than a sheep even if you include elephants (and dinosaurs).
If you take "kind" = species you get a lot of animals but there are a hell of a lot of small ones.

 This message is a reply to: Message 139 by bluescat48, posted 12-09-2008 12:07 AM bluescat48 has replied

 Replies to this message: Message 146 by bluescat48, posted 12-09-2008 6:41 AM NosyNed has not replied

NosyNed
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 Message 143 of 347 (490846) 12-09-2008 2:51 AM Reply to: Message 134 by killinghurts12-08-2008 7:59 PM

Percentage
11.25 cubic feeet is given as requiring 29% of the ark capacity.
100/29 * 11.25 = 38.8 so that seems to be your problem.

 This message is a reply to: Message 134 by killinghurts, posted 12-08-2008 7:59 PM killinghurts has not replied

Peg
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From: melbourne, australia
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 Message 144 of 347 (490854) 12-09-2008 4:34 AM Reply to: Message 136 by killinghurts12-08-2008 9:47 PM

Do you realize how large that vessel was? 300 cubits long, 50 cubits wide, and 30 cubits high
1 cubit is between 44cm (17.4inch) - 60 cm
If we calculate according to the conservative estimate of 17.5 inches per cubit, the ark measured 437 feet 6 inches by 72 feet 11 inches by 43 feet 9 inches.
As the ark was divided into three levels, it would have a total of more than 91,000 square feet of floor space and an overall capacity of 1.2 million cubic feet.
That is enough space for 445 standard railroad boxcars
so can you imagine how many animals could you transport in 445 boxcars?

 This message is a reply to: Message 136 by killinghurts, posted 12-08-2008 9:47 PM killinghurts has replied

 Replies to this message: Message 145 by bluescat48, posted 12-09-2008 6:37 AM Peg has not replied Message 147 by Percy, posted 12-09-2008 8:31 AM Peg has not replied Message 148 by killinghurts, posted 12-09-2008 8:56 PM Peg has replied

bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4325 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
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 Message 145 of 347 (490861) 12-09-2008 6:37 AM Reply to: Message 144 by Peg12-09-2008 4:34 AM

So what about the at least 2,500,000 cubic feet of space needed for the food?

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

 This message is a reply to: Message 144 by Peg, posted 12-09-2008 4:34 AM Peg has not replied

bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4325 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007

 Message 146 of 347 (490862) 12-09-2008 6:41 AM Reply to: Message 142 by NosyNed12-09-2008 2:49 AM

Re: fail!
Sorry mis read my own calc it should have been 2.2 ft

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

 This message is a reply to: Message 142 by NosyNed, posted 12-09-2008 2:49 AM NosyNed has not replied

Percy
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 Message 147 of 347 (490867) 12-09-2008 8:31 AM Reply to: Message 144 by Peg12-09-2008 4:34 AM

The subdiscussion begun by Killinghurts referenced a website that assumed that the number of cubic feet required for keeping sheep alive for 9 months on the ark is the same as that for a sheep transport vehical. As Nosy's numbers make clear, a sheep can live for a day or two in a few cubic feet of space, but not for 9 months.
And as Bluescat points out, the volume of food consumed by an animal in 9 months is far greater than the volume of the animal, so you need much more floor space for that, though certainly food can be stacked and stored much more efficiently than animals.
And you need additional floor space for passageways, bulkheads, equipment and supplies (rope, harnesses, prods, extra cages, wheelbarrows, spare parts and so forth), a shop for making repairs and creating contrivances as needed, and human living quarters.
Earlier someone mentioned the area needed by zoos, which are more spread out than would be the case on a ship, but they give a much more real-world idea of the space required than sheep transport trucks where sheep spend only a day or two.
A visit to the zoo is informative in other ways, too. Just visit the reptile and amphibian sections, usually housed in their own buildings, and look at all the specialized environments that have to be maintained, including temperature and humidity. Makes one wonder just how Noah kept his Amazon basin frogs alive for 9 months, not to mention how he acquired them in the first place.
Anyway, if you're only arguing that all the animals could fit within the volume of ark, then there's no argument, you're right. And all the members of my family could fit comfortably in my hall closet, so why don't I save a bundle and trade in my house for a tiny shed? Your ark scenario has such crowed conditions that many animals wouldn't live a week, let alone 9 months.
--Percy

 This message is a reply to: Message 144 by Peg, posted 12-09-2008 4:34 AM Peg has not replied

killinghurts
Member (Idle past 5129 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 04-23-2008

 Message 148 of 347 (490931) 12-09-2008 8:56 PM Reply to: Message 144 by Peg12-09-2008 4:34 AM

Thanks Peg, we have already included your measurements in the approximation of the volume of the Ark (on page 1 of this thread).
Also, would you mind responding to this link:
Did Noah take dinosaurs on the Ark? (Part 1) (The Great Dinosaur Mystery and the Bible) - ChristianAnswers.Net
earlier in this thread you (and others) refuted that Dinosaurs should be included in the calculation. According to christiananswers.net, they should be.
Edited by killinghurts, : added content

 This message is a reply to: Message 144 by Peg, posted 12-09-2008 4:34 AM Peg has replied

 Replies to this message: Message 157 by Peg, posted 01-08-2009 7:02 AM killinghurts has replied

killinghurts
Member (Idle past 5129 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 04-23-2008

 Message 149 of 347 (490935) 12-09-2008 9:48 PM

I am going to adjust the calculation on the number of known species, as a result of:
a) Dinosaurs are now included as per Did Noah take dinosaurs on the Ark? (Part 1) (The Great Dinosaur Mystery and the Bible) - ChristianAnswers.Net
b) Birds are now included as per:
Gen. 7:21-23:
quote:
[23] And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
If anyone has a problem with this please let me know.
The following estimates come from the following references:
How Many Animal Species Are There?
How Many Types of Dinosaurs Are Known?
http://faculty.plattsburgh.edu/thomas.wolosz/howmanysp.htm
How many dinosaur species were there? - Answers
I have also taken conservative measurements (i.e there are probably many, many more undocumented species that we simply don't know about). It also does not include insects or animals that have become extinct since the proposed time of the flood.
quote:
Known bird species world wide approx: 9000
Known mammal species world wide approx: 5000
Known dinosaur species world wide, approx: 500
= 14500

 Replies to this message: Message 150 by onifre, posted 12-10-2008 2:08 PM killinghurts has replied

onifre
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 Message 150 of 347 (490986) 12-10-2008 2:08 PM Reply to: Message 149 by killinghurts12-09-2008 9:48 PM

= 14500
Times 2, right?
Total: 29,000 animals on the Ark, not counting Noah and the crew, is that a fair number...?

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

 This message is a reply to: Message 149 by killinghurts, posted 12-09-2008 9:48 PM killinghurts has replied

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