|
Author
|
Topic: Anything Divine in the Bible?
|
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3122 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: 06-05-2008
|
Re: If God Were Human Would He Want a God Like Him?
Here are how slaves were treated in the Bible, just so we understand the conditions they lived in:
Leviticus 25:44 writes: However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. Exodus 21:20-21 writes: When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. Leviticus 19:20 writes: Now if a man lies carnally with a woman who is a slave acquired for another man, but who has in no way been redeemed nor given her freedom, there shall be punishment; they shall not, however, be put to death, because she was not free. So it is ok to beat your slaves to submission and rape the women slaves, just not enough where the would die from their beatings. Here are a couple of images so this can sink in what conditions slavery was like (these are disturbing but I am trying to make a a crucial and lucid point):
The condonement of slavery is so ingrained in the Bible that is was used by slave owners and prominent Christian ministers of the south to justify their actions in advocating slavery:
Jefferson Davis writes: Slavery was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts. Reverand Alexander Campbell, leader of the Christian Restoration movement in America writes: There is not one verse in the Bible inhibiting slavery, but many regulating it. It is not then, we conclude, immoral. Rev. R. Furman, Baptists Minister writes: The right of holding slaves is clearly established in the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example Rev. Jack Rogers, prominent Presbyterian pastor writes: The hope of civilization itself hangs on the defeat of Negro suffrage James Henry Hammond, United States Senator writes: The doom of Ham has been branded on the form and features of his African descendants. The hand of fate has united his color and destiny. Man cannot separate what God hath joined Let me repeat. SLAVERY IS NEVER RIGHT! NEVER! NEVER EVEN WHEN YOUR GOD COMMANDS IT!!!!
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.Dr. Carl Sagan
|
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3122 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: 06-05-2008
|
|
Message 317 of 406 (491229)
12-12-2008 4:50 PM
|
Reply to: Message 316 by jaywill
12-12-2008 4:41 PM
|
|
Re: If God Were Human Would He Want a God Like Him?
Jesus said that he that commits sin is a slave of sin. Does this mean that your slavery to sin is also never right?
That is if I believe the Bible to be true, which I don't. Beside Paul also says that you as a Christian are to be a slave to Christ so which is it?
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.Dr. Carl Sagan
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 316 by jaywill, posted 12-12-2008 4:41 PM | | jaywill has replied |
|
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3122 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: 06-05-2008
|
Re: If God Were Human Would He Want a God Like Him?
Again, is slavery right or wrong? I may have missed it but I have yet to hear a clear yes or no answer.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.Dr. Carl Sagan
|
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3122 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: 06-05-2008
|
|
|
Message 320 of 406 (491232)
12-12-2008 4:58 PM
|
Reply to: Message 319 by jaywill
12-12-2008 4:54 PM
|
|
Re: If God Were Human Would He Want a God Like Him?
How is it that in the case of American slavery the Methodist, Quakers, Minnonites, and many abolitionists drew so much of there apologetic from the Bible? If God was generally pro-slavery as you want to suggest, why did they find so much biblical ammunition to proclaim abolition? I don't know? Can you provide specific references from the Bible that back up this claim? It is up to you to substantiate your own claim not me.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.Dr. Carl Sagan
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 319 by jaywill, posted 12-12-2008 4:54 PM | | jaywill has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 323 by jaywill, posted 12-12-2008 5:06 PM | | DevilsAdvocate has not replied | | | Message 324 by jaywill, posted 12-12-2008 5:09 PM | | DevilsAdvocate has replied |
|
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3122 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: 06-05-2008
|
|
|
Message 325 of 406 (491237)
12-12-2008 5:12 PM
|
Reply to: Message 322 by jaywill
12-12-2008 5:00 PM
|
|
Re: If God Were Human Would He Want a God Like Him?
Check then your personal experience. Is is it true that you can be a slave of temper, lust, anxiety, greed, self pity, covetousness.
Can you be a slave of any of these behaviors? This is a figure of speach to describe how we can let our emotions overcome our rational senses. I am not literally a slave to my temper. There not a person called temper, lust, anxiety, whatever that I am am a slave to. "Temper" does not beat me relentleslly without mercy, etc. And what the heck does this have to do with human trafficing and human slavery? Nothing. This is just another attempty by you to sidestep my question.
That is a voluntary slave. That is a slave who says "I love my Master, I will not go out free." Whatever, I could care less. You tell me we are slaves of satan and then why I tell you that Christians are told they are slaves as well you try to justify it. Justify, justify, justify, you would justify God slaughtering your children with no reason if you could. Pure blind faith is truley frightening. What makes you different then radical muslim terrorists?
You're hot. I'll give you that. I am actually calmly sitting in my living room while my wife and daughter are watching a movie on TV. I just get tired of the same justifications and lack of rationality by fundamentalists (Christians or otherwise). Emotions don't carry over well over the Internet if you can't see someone face to face. Nothing personal it just gets kind of fustrating that someone can't see other points of view (and yes I know your point of view, been there, done that). Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : Correct misspelling
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.Dr. Carl Sagan
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 322 by jaywill, posted 12-12-2008 5:00 PM | | jaywill has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 330 by jaywill, posted 12-12-2008 6:04 PM | | DevilsAdvocate has replied |
|
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3122 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: 06-05-2008
|
|
|
Message 327 of 406 (491239)
12-12-2008 5:14 PM
|
Reply to: Message 324 by jaywill
12-12-2008 5:09 PM
|
|
Re: If God Were Human Would He Want a God Like Him?
I misread your reply. You asked for Biblcal references didn't you? Okay, that I will do for you tonight. Thanks. This should be an intersting discussion. 
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.Dr. Carl Sagan
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 324 by jaywill, posted 12-12-2008 5:09 PM | | jaywill has not replied |
|
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3122 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: 06-05-2008
|
|
|
Message 331 of 406 (491245)
12-12-2008 6:30 PM
|
Reply to: Message 328 by jaywill
12-12-2008 5:45 PM
|
|
Re: Abolitionists Use of the Bible
The year of Jubilee was a cyclical celebration every 49 years or so. Except that this only applied to Hebrew servents not foreign slaves as seen here (black=commands/laws regarding Hebrew servents, red=commands/laws regarding foreign slaves):
Leviticus 25:39-46 writes: If one of your countrymen becomes poor among you and sells himself to you, do not make him work as a slave. He is to be treated as a hired worker or a temporary resident among you; he is to work for you until the Year of Jubilee. Then he and his children are to be released, and he will go back to his own clan and to the property of his forefathers. Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves. Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God.
Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life,but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly. According to this scripture, foreign slaves have no rights and can be kept for life and their offspring passed down generation after generation (which is EXACTLY what the southern slave owners did).
The Minnonites battled the concept of the curse on the black man to be a slave by pointing out that not all of the race of Ham was said to be made slaves, but only the Canaanites. This was a powerful rebuttal to the theologians who thought that to enslave the African was their religious duty. So it is ok to enslave one group of people but not another? Who's morality is relative????
The spiritual songs of the slaves were filled with references to being freed from slavery from the Exodus. I would to if was brainwashed by my Christian slave masters and was only not allowed to learn how to read or write and was forced to attend Christian churches that reinforced Christian morality and stories from the Bible.
The equality of all men was preached by the abolotionists. Good on them!
And the New Testament book of Philemon was used often to point out that Christian brothers was a deeper relationship than that of slave to master. Ah, yes Philemon, the Christian slave owner of Onesimus a run-away slave and now "free" slave. It seem Paul is trying to flatter Philemon to ensure he is not to harsh with Onesimus who is returning to Philemon's care. Nowhere does Paul EVER condemn slavery, he condones it consistently throughout the NT (at least he tells slave masters to treat their slaves with some mercy which is never commanded or even suggested in the OT or even by Jesus):
Ephesians 6:5-9 writes: Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free. And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him. Colossians 3:22, 4:1 writes: Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord...Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven. Titus 2:9-10 writes: Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them, and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive. and
I Peter 2:18-20 writes: Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God. 20But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.Dr. Carl Sagan
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 328 by jaywill, posted 12-12-2008 5:45 PM | | jaywill has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 343 by jaywill, posted 12-13-2008 12:36 PM | | DevilsAdvocate has replied |
|
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3122 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: 06-05-2008
|
|
|
Message 332 of 406 (491246)
12-12-2008 6:37 PM
|
Reply to: Message 330 by jaywill
12-12-2008 6:04 PM
|
|
Re: If God Were Human Would He Want a God Like Him?
I thought you were searching for the truth.
Thanks for admiting that it doesn't matter to you one way or another. I was referring to your opinion about Paul calling Christians slaves of Christ. This is a moot point to someone who does not accept the Bible as being divinlely inspired and so is irrelevent to the discussion at hand. That was my point. But thanks for twisting my words, again. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.Dr. Carl Sagan
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 330 by jaywill, posted 12-12-2008 6:04 PM | | jaywill has not replied |
|
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3122 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: 06-05-2008
|
|
|
Message 342 of 406 (491276)
12-13-2008 12:27 PM
|
Reply to: Message 339 by jaywill
12-13-2008 9:59 AM
|
|
Re: If God Were Human Would He Want a God Like Him?
I give up. You win. Slavery was great. Slaves weren't treated that badly in the Bible. God commanded and condoned ethnicide, infanticide, murder, rape, etc. No problem, I am sure it wasn't that bad. Romans crucifide people. Not a problem. You guys are right. God want's to send everyone to eternal torment and damnation. Not a problem as long as my ass is saved and I am going to heaven who cares if everyone is going to be tortured in a burning lake of fire for eternity. We should justify everything in the Bible and just learn to accept that murder, slavery, rape, animal sacrifices, killing babies is ok since God commands and condones it. What a bunch of sheep. Go have a nice life justifying your sadistic, semitic god and your morally bankrupt book. My summary is done.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.Dr. Carl Sagan
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 339 by jaywill, posted 12-13-2008 9:59 AM | | jaywill has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 344 by jaywill, posted 12-13-2008 12:48 PM | | DevilsAdvocate has replied |
|
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3122 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: 06-05-2008
|
|
|
Message 350 of 406 (491305)
12-13-2008 10:47 PM
|
Reply to: Message 343 by jaywill
12-13-2008 12:36 PM
|
|
Re: Abolitionists Use of the Bible
What you are doing is exactly what the slave masters of American South did - selectively quote passages to uphold their evil system. Why is the American southern slave system so evil and the Hebrew slave system not? Talk about relative moralism! I am not the one trying to rationalize an evil system of slavery, even if it is in the Bible and condoned by your god. Slavery in any form is evil and wrong which is why the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights ratified in 1948 by 48 countries declared this among many of the declared rights for ALL human beings:
Article 4 writes: No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms. You give the impression that you are against them but you find them handy if it helps put the New Testament in a pro slavery negative light. It seems from I Corinthians 7:21 that Paul may have had somewhat an anti-slavery stance (and I respect him for that as I indicated previously in my last post he is the only one to tell masters to be lenient to their slaves) though he does not come right out and condemn it, instead he tells slaves to obey their masters even ones that are cruel to them.
This Paul taught not simply doctrinally. It was his personal experience. He was a dispised Jew under the Roman imperialism. He was a persecuted Christian under the floggin whips of his own countrymen. He was a prisoner in chains in a Roman jail. Who is disuputing this? What does this have to do with the practice of slavery?
You are twisting the passages to make Paul appear to be condoning slavery. You're no better than the racist slave masters who did the same things. Here is the definition of condone: "to regard or treat (something bad or blameworthy [i.e. slavery]) as acceptable, forgivable, or harmless". Did Paul or anyone else in their writings condemn the practice of slavery. If so show me where in the Bible, specific scriptures. If not and they do not condemn the practice of slavery then they are condoning it. Out the 774,746 words in the Bible, not 1 comes right out and condemns the practice of slavery. You are a warped individual to equate me to racist slave masters. I am speaking out against slavery against any group of people no matter what period of history it occurs in. How am I related to slave masters. You nut job I am speaking out against it, not for it.
Nice try Advocate of the Devil. But you see my ancestors were slaves in America. And we know that abolition and indeed the whole Civil Rights movement drew strength from the Bible's utterances. And? There were atheist abolitionists in France that ended the practice of slavery over 70 years before the United States. And many of the abolitionists in the United States were also atheists, agnostics or deists (not just Bible quoting fundamentalists) i.e. Ralph Waldo Emerson, William Lloyd Garrison, Robert Ingersoll and others. It wasn't Biblical Christianity that ended slavery, it was the institution of individual human rights. Please show me where these human rights are spelled out in the Bible. And please don't quote to me the golden rule, because the golden rule as well as the silver and bronze ones are found in other religions long before Jesus' Sermon on the Mount.
His was the God of people who may be found in all kinds of situations. That is a large God. That is not a petty God. That is an all-inclusive God who can supply people in prisons, in slavery, and in other difficult circumstances within which they discover that Jesus can be contacted for salvation. Your god at any time in the Bible could have commanded: Thou shalt not make men subject as slaves underneath you (or something of that sort). He never did. Never. If he made the 10 commandements plus 700+ other commandments than why not have 1 that condemned slavery. This would have prevented over 3000+ years of brutal conditions of human slavery? The morality in the Bible is more relative and subjective than that which that which is imposed by the vast majority of humanity in todays modern society.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.Dr. Carl Sagan
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 343 by jaywill, posted 12-13-2008 12:36 PM | | jaywill has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 362 by jaywill, posted 12-15-2008 9:18 PM | | DevilsAdvocate has replied |
|
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3122 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: 06-05-2008
|
|
|
Message 351 of 406 (491306)
12-13-2008 11:03 PM
|
Reply to: Message 344 by jaywill
12-13-2008 12:48 PM
|
|
Re: If God Were Human Would He Want a God Like Him?
And you. What are you going to do. Look at your children. When it comes to the Bible you want to take them first to the book of Joshua and make sure they get a good healthy dispising attitude about God. Then when they come to the other 65 books of the Bible they'll have a good skeptical filter. Actually my wife is a Christian and my daughter goes to Church with her (I also go to church with them as a dutiful father should, but do not fully participate in everything they do). I do not tell my daughter anything about my doubts since she is only 4. When she is of age and asks me what I think of religion I will tell her. It is her choice to choose what she wants to believe. Skeptism about all beliefs is a great filter to have. I rather her be skeptical and a critical thinker than to have her thinking done by someone else.
Maybe you'll teach them that all they have to know about Jesus is found in the account of the conquest of Canaan. No I will not teach her anything about Jesus. Hopefully she learns to study things on her own and discover what she feels is true or not.
Are you going to teach your kids to hate Jesus? Who said I hate Jesus? I think Jesus had a lot of good things to say. I just don't think he was divine (if he existed at all).
You going to start them on Leviticus? If I am going to start her on anything when she learns how to read, it would be history from every perspective from Livy to Edward Gibbon and everything inbetween (including the Bible).
You're the Sicko dad. LOL. I will wait until my daughter turns 17 and tells me that. 
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.Dr. Carl Sagan
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 344 by jaywill, posted 12-13-2008 12:48 PM | | jaywill has not replied |
|
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3122 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: 06-05-2008
|
Re: Abolitionists Use of the Bible
Thanks for the defense GM.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.Dr. Carl Sagan
|
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3122 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: 06-05-2008
|
|
|
Message 356 of 406 (491358)
12-14-2008 8:16 PM
|
Reply to: Message 355 by jaywill
12-14-2008 5:05 PM
|
|
Re: If God Were Human Would He Want a God Like Him?
As I said before. There is a difference between what the Bible teaches and what the Bible records as having happened. You have no example of a teaching commanding the forcing of a woman to have sexual intercourse. Produce one if you know of one. And I expect it to be a divine command and I expect it to be unambigous. What the Scriptures records as having happened is not the Scripure teaching what necessarily OUGHT to have happened. Here are several commandments by your god:
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 writes: If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her. What kind of lunatic would make their daughter marry her rapist for money!
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. You were saying? This is a commandment from your god. Evidently it is ok to sell your daughter as a sex slave!
Numbers 31:7-18 writes: Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves. Why do the young women have to be virgins do you think? And why are they the only ones to be saved? Obviously it is to rape and have sex with.
Actually, from Genesis chapter one that Man was made in the image of God and according to His likeness, is a condemnaton on racism and dehumanizing racist slavery. WHERE? Where does the Bible condemn slavery and racism? WHERE?
This is why the American slaver had to utilize a belief that blacks were less than human, which was of course unbiblical. They said that blacks did not have souls which was of course not biblical because all men had souls. So to a great degree you would have to acknowledge Christian theology as a tool to discourage racist slavery throughout the Western world. No, under Christian rule for over 1800 years slavery in different forms was rampant whether by the Spanish Conquistadors enslaving American Natives to the African slave trade under the rule of Christian nations such as Great Britain and the United States.
I like to have the historical objectivity to see both how the Bible was used by both sides. And I would resist as bias any attempt to portray slavery as the Bible's pet idea. You are right. Slavery was not invented by the authors of the Bible, however neither did they condemn it and in fact due to their condoning it, slavery was perpetuaded for centuries after.
Your kind of ignorance reminds me of the Moslem who cannot believe that any prophet of God could possibly sin. They also vigorously object to the idea of a prophet or patriarch being less than an angelic being. This rings true for your justification for all kinds of attrocities in the Bible condoned or commanded by your god. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.Dr. Carl Sagan
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 355 by jaywill, posted 12-14-2008 5:05 PM | | jaywill has not replied |
|
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3122 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: 06-05-2008
|
Re: If God Were Human Would He Want a God Like Him?
Bertot writes: Myself writes: When she is of age and asks me what I think of religion I will tell her. It is her choice to choose what she wants to believe. Skeptism about all beliefs is a great filter to have. I rather her be skeptical and a critical thinker than to have her thinking done by someone else. Will you also tell her your position on abortion and killing and eating of other species? Thanks for pigeon holing me and skewing this way off topic Bertot the Great. Actually I am pro-life though I do support adequate medical care for women who have to have abortions for criminal or emergency reasons i.e. life of mother at risk, rape, incest, etc. I don't think abortion should be used as a means for birth control. As far as killing and eating other species. Our human bodies have evolved for us to be omnivores (eat plant and animal matter), thus I don't think it to be immoral to eat meat. I do disagree with some of the deplorable commercial ways that we do this in which we probably cause these animals more pain than probably needed. However I don't think it is morally wrong to eat other animals. Are animals morally wrong for eating other animals? I will leave it up to her whether she wants to eat meat, be a vedgetarian or vegan. To me it makes no difference. Her choice will not affect our relationship in any degree.
Or will you gloss over this and pretend the glaring contradiction does not exist. What contradictions?
Will you tell her that you have no way to justify any of your actions, no way to describe them as moral or immoral? Who said I would do this? I just disagree where this morality is coming from. I say us humans create and have created our own moral systems just like we have created our own judicial systems based on these moral codes of ethics.
When you are telling her your opinion on the Bible, will you tell her that you dont really have a platform and that is just your opinion verses someone elses. Who say's I don't have a platform? My platform is I think the Bible is man made not created by some pretend supreme being in the sky.
I wish I could be a fly on the wall for that father daughter, discussion. But if I were a fly on the wall, you would probably smash it or spray it in the face with insecticide, correct? Yep if it was annoying me! LOL, you are a hoot Bertot!
When she asks you why abortion is ok and why its a crime to break or eat an eagles egg, will yu tell her how immoral or subjective human behavior is, or will you gloss over it as you have in this discussion? I don't eat eagles eggs. Do they taste good? I am thinking it is illegal since many eagles are endangered species though. You do realize that most of the chicken eggs we eat are unfertilized eggs (no baby chicks) right? Even if you get fertilized eggs from a farm refigeration stops embryo development. Is their something supposed to be immoral about eating eggs? You know what the chickens normally do with eggs that never get fertilized? They eat them!
When she asks you the question of why it is ok for humans to treat animals in a way that humans do not treat eachother, what will be your response, more relative nonsense. Actually I am saddened on how many animals are inhumanely treated. How would you respond?
When you are explaining the Bible to her and your positions on it, will you explain why it is evil for humans to treat eachother poorly and that your reasons are simply that you are human and it appears to be evil based on your intelligence and emotions but disregardt the same behavior any where else? Actually I have already told her it was bad (4 year olds don't understand the word evil) for other human beings to treat each other poorly. However, my example speaks louder than words. She really picks up on how I actually treat other people. This is why I try to take her with me when I do things like serve soup at a homeless shelter, give her old toys and clothes to children in need, sponsor a starving child, etc.
Will you explain to her that because you are more intelligent than other species, your actions are justified, for reasons of survival or simple causation? In one degree or another yes. This is not something you teach your kid in one sitting. I am still learning even at the ripe old age of 35.
When she asks you why you have to go away to another country will you tell her that there were some fellas that were drafted (slavery} against thier will, forced to fight and die against thier will, or go to prison, then proceed to explain this as an indentured servitude, verses simply forced servitude or slavery, or will you gloss over this while you are explaing your contempt for the scriptrues. Here is what I will and have taught her. I was never drafted. I volunteered to fight for my country because I believe in its ideals of freedom for all human beings. From human experience, I don't necessarily believe that trying to fight evil acts by peaceful means always works (though sometimes it does i.e. Ghandi's liberation of India). However sometimes it takes a moral backbone to stand up and protect those who can't protect themselves. That is why I fight for my country. BTW I do not have contempt for the Bible. It is just a book. I have contempt for people like you who twist it any way you wish to protect your own idealized view of the world and want to push it off on everyone else. If she asks when she is older (I will only explain if she asks me), I will tell her that I treat the Bible as any other historical-fiction book.
When she says, wait a minute daddy, your against the Bible because it condones slavery, but your in an organization (the military) that also condones slavery, when they feel it is necessary, what will be your response. Bertot, you have basically INSULTED the entire United States military institution by saying that it condones slavery as the draft. You have personally insulted millions of soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines who were drafted and served in WWI, WWII, the Korean, and the Vietnam Wars. I have NEVER, EVER heard anyone seriously (jokingly maybe) equate the military as slavery except by those who have never served and persistently scorn or deride it. I now seriously doubt you were in the military if you think that the military was nothing more than slavery.
Or will you be man enough to say to her sweetie, I suppose I have no way to justify my contempt for the God of the Bible or my actions. Bertot, your religiousity is showing through. And you wonder why people are not attracted to your faith. Your self-righteous, bigoted, holier-than-thou attitude does nothing to back up your unsubstantiated fairy-tale beliefs.
What you mean here is simply more relative nonsense against more subjectivism. Go have fun living your Christian pipe-dream. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.Dr. Carl Sagan
|
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3122 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: 06-05-2008
|
|
|
Message 371 of 406 (491453)
12-16-2008 10:58 AM
|
Reply to: Message 362 by jaywill
12-15-2008 9:18 PM
|
|
Re: Abolitionists Use of the Bible
Jaywill, Your and other Christians attempt to justify slavery in the Bible is appalling. So I guess by your logic the Hebrews were not slaves in Egypt then? Why can you not accept the FACT that your god ordered and condoned enslaving people according to your own Bible. Here is my rebuttal for "Does God Condone Slavery" defending the Hebrew slavery system:
Scholars in the ANE have often abandoned the use of the general term 'slavery' in descriptions of the many diverse forms of master-servant that are manifest in the ancient world. There are very few 'true' slave societies in the world (with Rome and Greek being two of the major ones!), and ancient Israel will be seen to be outside this classification as well (in legislation, not practice That is blatantly false. Systems of slavery abound in the ANE (Ancient Near East), not just in the Romans and the Greeks civilizations as attested to much of the manuscripts recovered from that time period. The real question is not whether these were "true" slaves or not, but what type of slaves where they and how did they become slaves? Maybe this will shed a little light on the subject of the Hebrew slavery system and show that the Hebrew practiced a similar type of slavery as their other Semitic neighbors including the Babylonians and Assyrians:
pg. 18-19 "The Slave Systems of Greek and Roman Antiquity" by Dr. William Lin Westermann, classics professor at the University of Wisconsin, Cornell University and Columbia University writes: A recent discovery of Aramaic papyri from Syrene in Upper Egypt has been made in the Charles Ewin Wilbour collection of the Brooklyn Museum. It contains three documents that deal with slavery as it operated in the well-known Hebrew colony at Elephantine in the second half of the fifth century B.C. The information which they offer upon the Semitic-Hebrew type of enslavement is presented here because of the sharp contrast which it establishes between the enslavement structures of the Greek politics of that time and that of a distant Hebrew community of the Diaspora... In the Sayce-Cow edition of the earlier purchases of the Aramaic group of the papyrus cited as K is an official record of a division between two brothers of property inherited from their mother. These brothers were members of the long-established Aramaic-speaking Hebrew military colony at Elephantine. Of these two, one was to receive in full ownership a slave who bore the thoroughly Egyptian name of Petosiris. The slave mother of this Petosiris responded to the equally Egyptian name of Tebo. Important for the comparative relation of Greek slave practice with the Hebrew system of that period is the statement in the record version of Sayce-Cowley papyrus K that the male slave, Petosiris, was marker upon the right wrist with the letter yod, written in Aramaic. This mark had been tattooed upon the slave's wrist first by the Hebrew woman, the mother of the two heirs, and again with the same sign by the son who was relinquishing the slave to the ownership of his brother. From this single document two observations can be made regarding the slave system of the Hebrews resident in this "fortress of Yeb" (Elephantine). The slaves of this isolated Hebrew community, so far as the evidence carries us, were Egyptians, by name at least. This observation, although it is based solely upon the lack of evidence of slaves of Hebrew extraction, is in line with the accepted conclusion applying to the Semitic enslavement type that membership in the religious community and tribal brotherhood precluded actual enslavement under the ownership of a coreligionist (a person of the same religion). The second observation is positive. The marking of slave, whether by tattooing or branding, was a feature of the Semitic-Oriental slave practice. It was not characteristic of the Greeks. The important differences between the Hellenistic attitude upon enslavement and that of the Hebrews residing in Upper Egypt and the lesser similarities between them which emerged are here presented. Both the divergences and the likenesses between the two systems apply, when viewed in the large, to the general Semitic-Oriental slave practice as contrasted with that of the Greeks... All slave systems grow around the hard core of a few similarities, deeply imbedded as the central ideas of the structure. These include the right of complete ownership of one human being by another, with control by the master of the physical powers and the mobility of the slave. Ideologically the slave has no individuality, no legal personality apart from that of his owner, no legal personality apart from that of his owner. Customarily, in the eyes of the law the slave has no male parent. Around this central core of likenesses there is an overlying growth of differences which are, in their nature, determined by political, economic and other environmental factors. These factors may be climatically or otherwise physically determined, or they may, in some cases, be accidental in character. Borrowings and transferences of ideas and practices from a neighboring slaveholding community may, or may not, play their part in the growth of any slave system. Slavery in the Ancient Middle East was clearly a master-slave relationship just as much as it was with the black slaves of the south. Conditions varied for these slaves dependent on the character of their slave masters, nothing more. Some slave owners were more civil to their slaves than others. However all incorporated the sense that slaves were not much more than property without any inherent rights and subject to the laws of ownership and transference of property. Nowhere in the Bible does it call for the abolition of slavery. And no where does it say that slaves have any rights bestowed on free people. Does the reason why they were put into slavery have any bearing on the right for freedom that human beings should naturally have? Who cares why there were enslaved. Does it really matter? Does it make it right to enslave people because they are poor? To strip them of any rights and rule over them as their masters? To treat them as property not as human beings and treat them as chattel slaves (Leviticus 25)? To treat their women as sex slaves and beat them without mercy as long as you don't kill them (Exodus 20:20-21)? Since this form of slavery was so ok with you, why is it not ok that the Romans, Greeks, Babylonians, Assyrians, or Egyptians enslave people? So why is it not ok to reintroduce slavery back into American society if it was ok in Abraham's time? You talk about moral relativism yet you are enacting religious moral relativism in which horrendous atrocities were committed in the past by your god, yet why is it not ok that they be committed now? Here is example of religious moral relativism from Christianity Knowledge Base | Fandom: " It was not only acceptable, but morally required of God to 'wage war' against the ungodly people around the Israelites. Sin isn't tolerated by God." and "God approved of slavery in this instance only because it was His hope that those who became slaves of the Israelites from foreign nations might 'be saved.' Even though they would lose their earthly freedom, God hoped that they would gain eternal freedom by coming to know Him, which is far more important." This pitiful attempt to justify your god commanding the Israelites to slaughter, pillage, rape, and enslave their enemies along with your continuing justification for this behavior is religious moral relativism, plain and simple. Otherwise why are you not practicing it today? If God told you to make me your slave would you do it?
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.Dr. Carl Sagan
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 362 by jaywill, posted 12-15-2008 9:18 PM | | jaywill has not replied |
|
™ Version 4.2
