Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
8 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,816 Year: 3,073/9,624 Month: 918/1,588 Week: 101/223 Day: 12/17 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Anything Divine in the Bible?
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 376 of 406 (491461)
12-16-2008 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 367 by Dawn Bertot
12-16-2008 2:08 AM


Re: If God Were Human Would He Want a God Like Him?
Hey Bertot, here's my reaction again.
Matters such as, subjective, objective, relative, moral, immoral, evil and the application of them against logic and logical contradictions and implied, direct and indirect implications.
I don't quite understand what you're saying here, or is that what you mean when you say my thinking is "simplistic"? For let me assure you, many thoughts have gone into my standards.
In the Warren-Matson debate, on the existence of the God of the Bible, Dr. Matson called God a logical monster, to which Dr. Warren took great offense. Dr. Matson said this was not an attack on Gods character but a direct implication of the arguments that flowed from those premises. Ofcourse he was wrong and Dr Warren soon dismissed any idea of God being illogical.
He might dismiss it, but it's true. God has these rules, and if you break them, he will send ou to a lake of fire an torture you for ever and ever and ever. But he loves you.... If that isn't illogical, I don't know what is.
But Dr Matsons implication was misunderstood perhaps. Ofcourse while he meant no offense, he like yourselves had no platform from which to make such a statement. Do you see what I am saying?
Yes, I see what you are saying. I would like to ask what your point is? So what that he didn't have a platform. Does this make his logic any less true? Does this make his opinion less valid? Why do you keep saying you need a platform to judge? As it is quite obvious that you don't need such a thing whatsoever.
For example I was not talking about eagles eggs or the military personnel directly, but using it as an example to demonstrate a logical point.
The point you made was far from logical. Eating eagle eggs as nourishment and removing some cells from a woman's womb are two entirely different things. Oh, and to make it even more complicated, I don't see the eating of eagle's eggs as wrong in all circumstances either.
You and Huntard dont seem to understand the implications of holding and having standards against a relative moral position.
Would you mind explaining what those implications are? Cause I indeed don't see any.
So be it. Jaywill is proceeding in a fine fashion as he usually does and I will be happy to let him proceed with the direct Biblical approach, from which he is so masterful.
If you want to leave DA to his discussion with Jaywill, fine by me, but would you mind answering my questions?

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 367 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-16-2008 2:08 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 377 of 406 (491462)
12-16-2008 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 374 by jaywill
12-16-2008 12:07 PM


Re: More on Slavery...
Jaywill writes:
God created the human conscience.
Then why are not all consciences equal? If god made them, I'm sure he would make it so that it was clear to everybody what was right and wrong. This is so obviously not the case I say that god didn't make our conscience.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 374 by jaywill, posted 12-16-2008 12:07 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 380 by jaywill, posted 12-16-2008 2:33 PM Huntard has replied
 Message 387 by iano, posted 12-16-2008 8:26 PM Huntard has replied

Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 378 of 406 (491465)
12-16-2008 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 372 by DevilsAdvocate
12-16-2008 11:23 AM


Re: If God Were Human Would He Want a God Like Him?
I am not your "holmes" and I seriously doubt you were ever in the military. Doesn't your god tell you "Thou shalt not lie".
Ok, it must have been a dream for 22 years, but if you want to believe I am lying about such a simple things , then OK.
qsAnd you wonder why I think you are a condescending religious prick.
Oooo pottie mouth, to quote Jaywill.
Bertot Writes:
Matters such as, subjective, objective, relative, moral, immoral, evil and the application of them against logic and logical contradictions and implied, direct and indirect implications
DA writes:
That isn't even a complete gramitically correct sentance. What are you trying to say?
My point exacally but never mind we will leave it there for now, eh
Bertot writes:
I would say kindly that you are a child in your understanding.
DA writes:
And I would say kindly that you are fucking idiot. Your point?
Why you worthless sack of c..., no Im just kidding ofcourse.
No, and I no longer care what you have to say. You insult me and then you expect me to acknowledge anything you have to say? Fat chance. All you have succeeding in proving to me is that you are self-righteous religious nut.
Well I never, again IM just kidding, Ill now make my point with your following quote.
The draft and slavery on not the same. Draftees have personal rights and freedoms that slaves do not as I outlined previously. Slaves have no rights whatsoever and are treated as property and owned and serve at the whims of their slave masters.
DA answer the following questions:
Are some draftees pulled in and forced to serve against thier will, yes or no?
Are there severe consequences, prison and other punishments if they choose to exercise thier will to leave that situation, Yes or No.?
Now you can add any terms and conditions to the word slave you wish, but the above will most certainly involve the word slave, or forced servitude.
If not maybe you would like to provide a word that does not inmply slavery.
Your problem and frustration is that you have been offered an example of a situation where you are condemning something but a part of an organization that has some of the same practices, regardless of thier benifits, other freedoms and rights, correct? Heck even the Hebrew slaves had bennies and alot of rights, correct?
This my friend is a double standard and demonstrates again why you do not have a platform. The first reason is that you are proceeding from a subjective morality, by your own admission, which you dont seem to understand or you are being very evasive. This is my reason for saying your thinking was simple, it was not meant as an insult.
I gots to go to work homie. Now see that term is not insulting, I believe it means friend. Now if I called you home spun, that would mean you were homlie and that would be an insult, ha ha
D Bertot
Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-16-2008 11:23 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 379 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-16-2008 2:12 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 379 of 406 (491466)
12-16-2008 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 378 by Dawn Bertot
12-16-2008 1:53 PM


Re: If God Were Human Would He Want a God Like Him?
Your problem and frustration is that you have been offered an example of a situation where you are condemning something but a part of an organization that has some of the same practices, regardless of thier benifits, other freedoms and rights, correct? Heck even the Hebrew slaves had bennies and alot of rights, correct?
This my friend is a double standard and demonstrates again why you do not have a platform. The first reason is that you are proceeding from a subjective morality, by your own admission, which you dont seem to understand or you are being very evasive. This is my reason for saying your thinking was simple, it was not meant as an insult
The problem though is that if you use this line of reasoning you could apply the term "slave" to just about any type of labor industry. You are slave to your work so to speak. You have to work for a boss who may treat you like shit and if you may have to work for long enduring hours with very little incintives and pay. You could quit a civilian job at anytime but so too will you face repricussions there as well i.e. loss of wages, no or a negative recommendation, an angry wife, starving kids, loss of house, etc.Are they actual literal slaves as modern society defines slavery? No!
The term slave used in the Bible has no relation with a draftee. In fact anyone in the military who leaves before their enlistment contract is up is subject to punishments as dictated by the UCMJ i.e. serving out the rest of their contract, etc. So by your logic I would be a slave as well since I am in the military and cannot quit anytime I wanted.
Please tell me where in the dictionary where it defines a slave as a military draftee?
Your analogy with a military draftee and a slave of antiquity or of today are two totally different creatures. They are not the same, and this is not what the Bible was talking about with the Hebrew enslavement of other ethnic groups.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 378 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-16-2008 1:53 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 383 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-16-2008 3:37 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied
 Message 389 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-17-2008 12:58 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 380 of 406 (491469)
12-16-2008 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 377 by Huntard
12-16-2008 12:40 PM


Re: More on Slavery...
Then why are not all consciences equal? If god made them, I'm sure he would make it so that it was clear to everybody what was right and wrong. This is so obviously not the case I say that god didn't make our conscience.
I think the question should be: Why do some listen to their conscience and some do not?
Then this is further complicated by the fact of different issues. I may be more sensative in conscience in one matter. I notice that that is no garantee that I have boasting rights over another person who may be more prone in another area to listen to his conscience than I.
There is also the problem of an over sensative conscience too. That can lead to mental problems. I do not deal with that here.
Now, here's what I read in the Bible. The first record we have of someone going against his conscience is Cain, the brother of Abel. This is the second generation of mankind in Genesis. I won't include Adam and Eve blaming their sin on someonee else. Without going into a full exposition on Cain and Abel let me highlight that Cain had a problem listening to his conscience.
Let me skim over some details real fast.
1.) Cain and Abel's parents told them how God needed to be worshipped.
2.) Abel obeyed. Cain decided to invent his own procedure.
3.) God recognized Abel's offering and rejected Cain's with an encouraging word to Cain that if he did well he too would be received.
4.) Cain, over come with the jealousy of rage becomes the world's first murderer. He also becomes the world's first inventor of a man made religion.
5.) God speaks to Cain about the slain brother Abel. Here is where we see Cain's conscience problem:
Then Jehovah said to Cain, Where is Abel your brother? And he said, I do not know. Am I my brother's keeper? (Gen. 4:9)
He has just murdered his brother Abel. He is totally callous about it. It is not that Cain had no conscience. It is that he excecised his will power to suppress it. He shut it down. He shut it up. He refused by act of will to listen to his conscience.
The problem with his conscience is really the problem in his will's choice to suppress the feeling of wrong doing in his conscience.
Of course God knew exactly where Abel was. God was giving Cain an opportunity to realize what he had done and to confess his sin. The result was disappointing:
And He [God] said, What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying out to Me from the ground. And now you are cursed from the gound which has opened its mouh to receive your brother's blood from your hand. When you till the ground, it will no longer yeild its strength to you. You will be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth.
And Cain said to Jehovah, My punishment is greater than I can bear ... (See Gen. 4:10-13)
Cain still shows no sign of remorse. He only cares that his punishment is too harsh. He is scared that someone will seek vengence upon him and kill him, an act which God strictly forbids.
The Bible portrays the downward current of the human race from Adam's disobedience. The next stage from entry of death is sin, murder, and the refusal to heed the God given conscience.
Some would listen to the conscience and some would not.
Now the conscience is a part of what the Bible calls the heart. Psalm 33 says:
Jehovah looks down from heaven; He sees all the sons of men. From the site of His habitation He gazes at all the inhabitants of the earth, He who fashions the hearts of them all, He who discerns all their works. (Psa. 33:13-14)
God fashions the hearts of all created men. Then God observes their lives and their works. He is watching. He is observing how each of us reacts to our conscience.
He does not expect us to be able to carry out all of the good that we know. He knows that we have fallen into a sinful nature. He does neither expect us to be able to resist all of the evil that we know. He knows that we have become corrupted and damaged by the poisoning of man's nature with the Satanic spirit operating in Adam's descendents.
He hopes that the conscience will be listened to to the point that when the Gospel comes and informs us that we have sinned we would agree. When it says that Jesus had died for our sins He hopes we will believe.
When we do and accept Jesus as our Savior and Lord there is a great peace that comes into the conscience that nothing in the world can give. There is no imitation for it. It is supernatural. Yet it is quite normal. We have peace toward God. We know that we are now, under the blood of Jesus, in a status AS IF WE HAD NEVER SINNED.
The conscience is restful and peaceful because, JUSTICE, has occured on our behalf in the death of Christ. We have not been overlooked. We have been JUDGED. We have been judged in Christ. Justice has been imputed on our behalf in the death of Jesus the Son of God. On Calvary, on Christ's cross, our sins which offend our God created conscience were dealt with by Christ.
The wrong reaction is to reason like this:
"No I am NOT a sinner. I am a pretty good person. At least I am not as bad as this guy over here. I am better than that one over there. I am better than a lot of religious people. I don't need to be saved. I don't need a Savior.
Even if I am bad I can change. Just give me one more day. I'll prove that I can change. I can live a life pleasing to God. Beside I don't want to have someone else take the penalty for me. That is not noble. That is not responsible. I will be responsible before God for my own sins. I don't want to say that I am all forgiven because of the death of Jesus."
These kinds of reasonings are rebellion and unbelief. It is better to pray like this:
"Lord Jesus. I realize that I am a sinner. I don't promise to change myself. I don't promise I can turn over a new leaf. But I do acknowledge that I am a guilty sinner. I need your precious blood to wash away the stain of my sins before God. I receive you as my Lord and Savior."
That is much much wiser response to the Gospel. In fact just to confess "Lord Jesus" is most of the battle.
This post is not meant to completely explain the Christian experience. I mean it to address the question you had on the conscience. I also wanted to show you how the conscience can be released, made free, clean, gloriously at peace and how you can have a brand new start with a keener and ever brightening conscience.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : I won't include Adam and Eve blaming their sin on someonee else.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 377 by Huntard, posted 12-16-2008 12:40 PM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 381 by Coragyps, posted 12-16-2008 2:42 PM jaywill has replied
 Message 398 by Huntard, posted 12-17-2008 3:20 PM jaywill has replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 381 of 406 (491471)
12-16-2008 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 380 by jaywill
12-16-2008 2:33 PM


Re: More on Slavery...
Pretty good sermonizing there, Jaywill, but isn't this a debate forum?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 380 by jaywill, posted 12-16-2008 2:33 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 382 by jaywill, posted 12-16-2008 3:01 PM Coragyps has not replied
 Message 385 by iano, posted 12-16-2008 7:55 PM Coragyps has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 382 of 406 (491472)
12-16-2008 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 381 by Coragyps
12-16-2008 2:42 PM


Re: More on Slavery...
Pretty good sermonizing there, Jaywill, but isn't this a debate forum?
This kind of sermonizing is different. You are not stuck to listen passively in your pew. You can heckle, debate, challenge, debunk, correct, sneer, take the conversation in a whole new direction, or preach your own sermon.
Seriously. This is what you have to understand ... the truth is a living Person.
It is not an accurate fact or some correct information. The truth is a living Person.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 381 by Coragyps, posted 12-16-2008 2:42 PM Coragyps has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 383 of 406 (491477)
12-16-2008 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 379 by DevilsAdvocate
12-16-2008 2:12 PM


Re: If God Were Human Would He Want a God Like Him?
Are they actual literal slaves as modern society defines slavery? No!
Well neither are the "slaves" in the Old Testament "actual literal slaves as modern society defines slavery".
this is not what the Bible was talking about with the Hebrew enslavement of other ethnic groups.
"Slave" in Biblical terms can mean a lot of different things.

ABE:
after reading back a bit....
How do you know that slavery is immoral?
Think about this:
If there wasn't slavery, then the U.S. wouldn't be here.
Edited by Catholic Scientist, : see abe:

This message is a reply to:
 Message 379 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-16-2008 2:12 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 384 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-16-2008 5:38 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 384 of 406 (491493)
12-16-2008 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 383 by New Cat's Eye
12-16-2008 3:37 PM


Re: If God Were Human Would He Want a God Like Him?
CS writes:
Well neither are the "slaves" in the Old Testament "actual literal slaves as modern society defines slavery".
Um yes they are. How are they not literal slaves?
If you are going to weigh in on this discussion you should provide evidence to back up your bare assumptions. And yes, I have backed my statements up with evidence in previous posts i.e. Message 371.
Canaanite and other non-Hebrew slaves could be kept indefinately and passed down from generation to generation as dictated in Leviticus 25. They were treated as property much like cattle and other valuable items.
The following is a book I am currently reading that may help shed some light on this subject: Jewish Slavery in Antiquity. Let me know what you think.
CS writes:
"Slave" in Biblical terms can mean a lot of different things.
I am talking about the enslavement of foreigners as well as Hebrews by other Hebrews as commanded by God in not as a metephorical or symbolic figure of speach such as "I am a slave to my work", "a slave to sin", "a slave of God", etc. Please keep it in this context.
Here is the context I am talking about:
Exodus 21:20-21 writes:
"If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.
and
Leviticus 25:44-46 writes:
'Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
Slaves have no rights or freedoms and are considered property of their masters. This is what I am talking about. Enslavement of one person over another in this manner should not be condoned or justified.
CS writes:
Think about this:
If there wasn't slavery, then the U.S. wouldn't be here
This is a logical fallacy. How do you know the US or somthing similar to it wouln't exist without slavery. Maybe a better agent of freedom could have formed if this country could have abolished the practice of slavery earlier in its history. We will never know.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 383 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-16-2008 3:37 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 386 by jaywill, posted 12-16-2008 8:15 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied
 Message 395 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-17-2008 12:15 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 385 of 406 (491503)
12-16-2008 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 381 by Coragyps
12-16-2008 2:42 PM


Re: More on Slavery...
Coragyps writes:
Pretty good sermonizing there, Jaywill
Seconded.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 381 by Coragyps, posted 12-16-2008 2:42 PM Coragyps has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 386 of 406 (491504)
12-16-2008 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 384 by DevilsAdvocate
12-16-2008 5:38 PM


Re: If God Were Human Would He Want a God Like Him?
DevilsAdvocate,
Aside from some of your lapses you have made your case pretty forcefully and elquently. I take it to be that the references to slavery in the Bible prove God condones it and therefore you feel the Bible does not contain anything Divine.
Is that a fair summary of your position?
Let me ask you a few questions, hoping you'll give a non sarcastic and honest reply.
1.) Do you think that "Thou shalt not have any slaves" should have been one of the Ten Commandments ?
2.) When God gives instructions to the Hebrews how to offer the trespass offering do you take that as God's command for them to commit trespasses?
3.) When God gives instructions about what to do in the case of Divorce, do you take that to mean that God is commanding the Hebrews to Divorce ?
4.) When God gives instructions about what the Hebrews should do in the case of owning slaves, do you take that as God's command for them to have slaves?
5.) If slavery in any form was a sin, do you think that the sin offerings, trespass offerings were not designed to atone for such sins in the Hebrew worship ?
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 384 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-16-2008 5:38 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 388 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-16-2008 9:03 PM jaywill has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 387 of 406 (491505)
12-16-2008 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 377 by Huntard
12-16-2008 12:40 PM


Re: More on Slavery...
Huntard writes:
Then why are not all consciences equal? If god made them, I'm sure he would make it so that it was clear to everybody what was right and wrong. This is so obviously not the case I say that god didn't make our conscience.
jaywill has already made the point that different people will suppress their conscience in different degrees, in different areas where conscience can operate - so its very difficult to measure any degree of imbalance (given that Gods perspective on sin is the measure being applied)
There is also this to consider: the purpose of law giving (via conscience) is not so much to restrain us from sin as it is to convict us that we are sinners. Which means that it's imperative we sin!
Suppressing conscience in order to sin can lead in one of two directions finally:
- continued suppression, to cope with the seared conscience caused by the previous suppression. On and on and on until the last breath is drawn (or the conscience is finally extinguished).
- the will of a person, whilst suppressing conscience in order to sin isn't prepared to suppress to the bitter end. It is unwilling to fully bury/ fully excuse/ fully justify what it knows to be evil - whilst finding itself unable to stop committing evil. In the measure it doesn't suppress, it must bear the pain of a seared conscience.
Hopefully, a persons continued sin will lead to increasing despair over their sin, to an impoverished spirit they at least can recognise - whatever the external appearances might indicate.
Blessed are these impoverished in spirit - for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 377 by Huntard, posted 12-16-2008 12:40 PM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 390 by jaywill, posted 12-17-2008 6:42 AM iano has replied
 Message 399 by Huntard, posted 12-17-2008 3:28 PM iano has not replied

DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 388 of 406 (491506)
12-16-2008 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 386 by jaywill
12-16-2008 8:15 PM


Re: If God Were Human Would He Want a God Like Him?
DevilsAdvocate,
Aside from some of your lapses you have made your case pretty strongly. I take it to be that the references to slavery in the Bible prove God condones it and therefore you feel the Bible does not contain anything Divine.
Is that a fair summary of your position?
It is not that I feel the Bible is not divine because of the atrocities I see in the Bible. From my own study of the Bible compared to the archaeological and historical evidence of the Ancient Near East and Mediterranean my opinion is that the Bible, both OT and NT seem to be human derived (OT from Semitic and non-Semitic neighbors and NT from Greco-Roman gnostic and mystery religions) not God inspired. Also, the Bible's own inconsistencies, scientific evidence and supernatural and unrealistic myth-like stories (i.e. creation in 7 days, talking snakes, talking donkey's, sun stand still, water to wine, walking on water, virgin birth, etc) also prove this point to me.
If Christians treated the Bible as just another book presenting the history of that region not as a doctrinal thesis on how we should live our lives I would have no problems with this. However, Christians selectively cherry pick stories and passages out of the Bible to use as examples of how we are to live a moral life while disregarding the blatant and disparaging passages chalked full of what modern humans consider human atrocities. How can they do this in good conscience when the god of the Bible systematically commands, commits and condones ethnocide, rape, murder, infanticide, enslavement and other atrocities. Even worse, Christians justify this behavior (from what I believe to be a non-existent being) as being acceptable. That is what I have a problem with.
Let me ask you a few questions, hoping you'll give a non sarcastic and honest reply.
You treat me with respect and I shall do the same.
1.) Do you think that "Thou shalt not have any slaves" should have been one of the Ten Commandments ?
Yes, that would have been a start. Any attempts to prohibit slavery, ethnocide, and the other atrocities of the OT would be a convincing argument for a good and just God.
2.) When God gives instructions to the Hebrews how to offer the trespass offering do you take that as God's command for them to commit trespasses?
No, but that is not the same as telling the Hebrews where to get their slaves from and that as long as you don't kill them than it is ok to beat them. Also, telling them they can sale their daughters off as sex slaves is also pretty disgusting. And yes, God does in several passages tell the Hebrews to annihilate babies and children of their enemies (infanticide) as well as pillage their cities and rape their women. And no I am not being sarcastic. I have listed these passages over and over in this topic and each time they get summarily dismissed by you and Bertot.
3.) When God gives instructions about what to do in the case of Divorce, do you take that to mean that God is commanding the Hebrews to Divorce ?
No but he is condoning it i.e. allowing it to happen.
Deuteronomy 24:1-3 writes:
If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man, and her second husband dislikes her and writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, or if he dies, then her first husband, who divorced her, is not allowed to marry her again after she has been defiled. That would be detestable in the eyes of the LORD. Do not bring sin upon the land the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance.
Do you think it would be ok if our judicial system created a law saying "If a man wants to have sexual relations with a young boy, ensure that the young boy provides a certificate of consent before allowing this to take place". Do you think this law would be condoning the act of pedophilia even though the judicial system is not commanding it men to have sexual relations with little boys? Of course. So why is the Mosaic law any different?
4.) When God gives instructions about what the Hebrews should do in the case of owning slaves, do you take that as God's command for them to have slaves?
I take it that God at a minimum is condoning slavery to take place.
One of my favorite quotes by English philosopher Edmund Burke (yes he was a Christian but he was also a humanist) is "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing". If you are doing anything to stop an evil act from occurring than you are condoning it. Should this not apply even to your god?
5.) If slavery in any form was a sin, do you think that the sin offerings, trespass offerings were not designed to atone for such sins in the Hebrew worship ?
I don't know. I have never seen in the Bible were slavery is considered a sin. Can you provide a scriptural reference for this?
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 386 by jaywill, posted 12-16-2008 8:15 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 391 by jaywill, posted 12-17-2008 7:14 AM DevilsAdvocate has not replied
 Message 397 by jaywill, posted 12-17-2008 1:23 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 389 of 406 (491521)
12-17-2008 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 379 by DevilsAdvocate
12-16-2008 2:12 PM


Re: If God Were Human Would He Want a God Like Him?
DA writes:
The problem though is that if you use this line of reasoning you could apply the term "slave" to just about any type of labor industry. You are slave to your work so to speak. You have to work for a boss who may treat you like shit and if you may have to work for long enduring hours with very little incintives and pay. You could quit a civilian job at anytime but so too will you face repricussions there as well i.e. loss of wages, no or a negative recommendation, an angry wife, starving kids, loss of house, etc.Are they actual literal slaves as modern society defines slavery? No!
Ofcourse and that is my point DA, slavery has many meanings and cannot be restricted to a certain definition. The only problem with the above examples you provide, while very true, is you missed the point and avoided the first question I asked. I asked, are people (draftees) taken against thier will, yes or no?
When this action happens, whether you call them prisoners or indentured servents acting against thier will they are slaves of a sort and by definition.
The term slave used in the Bible has no relation with a draftee. In fact anyone in the military who leaves before their enlistment contract is up is subject to punishments as dictated by the UCMJ i.e. serving out the rest of their contract, etc. So by your logic I would be a slave as well since I am in the military and cannot quit anytime I wanted.
The fact that anyone that leaves the military has consequenses has nothing to do with the fact that draftees (slaves), or what ever you wish to describe them, are taken against thier will an FORCED to serve in places and situations that are against thier beliefs, not to mention the fact that they do not wish to be there in the first place.
I noticed you did not provide another word to discribe the situation of those taken against thier will as in the case of draftees. Now this may be what the government calls them, but what do you think the people that are in that situation against thier will call it?
DA writes:
Please tell me where in the dictionary where it defines a slave as a military draftee?
OK.
slave” ”/slev/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [sleyv] Show IPA Pronunciation
noun, verb, slaved, slaving.
-noun 1. a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant.
2. a person entirely under the domination of some influence or person: a slave to a drug.
3. a drudge: a housekeeping slave.
4. a slave ant.
5. Photography. a subsidiary flash lamp actuated through its photoelectric cell when the principal flash lamp is discharged.
6. Machinery. a mechanism under control of and repeating the actions of a similar mechanism. Compare master (def. 19).
-verb (used without object) 7. to work like a slave; drudge.
8. to engage in the slave trade; procure, transport, or sell slaves.
-verb (used with object) 9. to connect (a machine) to a master as its slave.
10. Archaic. to enslave.
Take a look at 2 and 10.
slavery” ”/slevri, slevri/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [sley-vuh-ree, sleyv-ree] Show IPA Pronunciation
-noun 1. the condition of a slave; bondage.
2. the keeping of slaves as a practice or institution.
3. a state of subjection like that of a slave: He was kept in slavery by drugs.
4. severe toil; drudgery
Take a look at 1 and 3.
Your analogy with a military draftee and a slave of antiquity or of today are two totally different creatures. They are not the same, and this is not what the Bible was talking about with the Hebrew enslavement of other ethnic groups
Yes DA there may be some differences but the start and finish of the draftee and slave in any situation are exacally the same, they are TAKEN AGAINST THIER WILL, for the purposes of the abductor to serve thier wishes, whether it is the government or an individual.
Your initial contention or question was, Is slavery wrong or right, it mentioned nothing about a certain type, time or place of that condition. My example of the draftee demonstrates beyond any doubt that the term slavery is broad in character and meaning.
If this is not what the Bible or anyother definition of slavery are implying, then you are saying it is ok to take people against thier will (draftee) if you or someone else thinks it appropriate or if we simply redefine the word, or think that our actions are justified.
DA please provide an example where it is ok to take someone against thier will, make them work for you and punish them if they leave. In other words, in your view, is there any situation or circumstances that these actions would be justified and WHY?
No my friend they are not two different creatures, its simply that you will not acknowledge that forcing a person in any situation is not acceptable. You make concessions in one instance because it contradicts your conclusions. When you answer the questions I asked you fairly in your mind, there will be no distinction.
A slave is a slave, a prisoner is a slave, a draftee is a slave, a kiddnaped person is a slave. When there are no choices but to obey or disobey with or without consequenses and be soley under the influence of that person or situation, with no choices of your own except to escape, that my friend is slavery, no matter what other condition you ascribe to it, correct?
In fact anyone in the military who leaves before their enlistment contract is up is subject to punishments as dictated by the UCMJ i.e. serving out the rest of their contract, etc. So by your logic I would be a slave as well since I am in the military and cannot quit anytime I wanted.
Ofcourse not. You entered into that CONTRACT OF YOU OWN FREE WILL and are therefore obligated to honor that contract as you would the purchase of an automobile. Draftees did not agree to anything or enter into any contract of thier own free will, but are forced into those situations as is a slave of any time, place or country. Notice you even used the word "contract".
Besides that to help you know that I was in the military, what do we usually call 77-134 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice? What term describes those articles. Ill give you a hint it starts with a "P"
D Bertot
Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 379 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-16-2008 2:12 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 393 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-17-2008 9:30 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 390 of 406 (491529)
12-17-2008 6:42 AM
Reply to: Message 387 by iano
12-16-2008 8:26 PM


Re: More on Slavery...
jaywill has already made the point that different people will suppress their conscience in different degrees, in different areas where conscience can operate - so its very difficult to measure any degree of imbalance (given that Gods perspective on sin is the measure being applied)
What good does it do for us to have some exact science by which we can measure degrees of embalance? It makes more sense to receive the salvation of Christ's imparted Spirit of life which puts our conscience at peace with God.
This life implanted into the regenerated man, if watered and nourished develops it to its keener and keener. This keeness of conscience is firstly to be utilized personally towards one's self. Then peace in the conscience deepens.
Paul said that he sought "always to have a conscience void of offense before God and man." He lived to be aware that there was nothing in his conscience against God which bothered him nor concerning his fellow man which bothered him.
He was firstly strict towards himself. He was not firstly strict in applying it to others. He did preach and teach "the unsearchable riches of Christ as the gospel" to the world. But he applied it to himself firstly and spoke out of his own experience so others could find the way also.
I wander than about a preoccupation to develop a system by which you can accurately measure the embalance. Perhaps that would be the concern of a Psychologist - to publish a system like a catalogue of mental illnesses to serve as a exhaustive professional manual.
There is also this to consider: the purpose of law giving (via conscience) is not so much to restrain us from sin as it is to convict us that we are sinners. Which means that it's imperative we sin!
I could be misunderstanding the intention of this paragraph.
But any suggestion that man SHOULD sin is unreliably opposed to the revelation of the Bible and really to common sense.
I agree that the law was given to expose man's sinning nature. But I hope this is not a cynical leap from that to suggest, that the more sin commited then the better. Early critics of the Christian faith leveled this criticism against Paul's teaching:
"What then shall we say? Should we continue to sin that grace may abound? Absolutely not! We [Christians] who have died to sin, how shall we still live in it?" (Rom. 6:1,2)
"What then? Should we sin, because we are not under the law but under grace? Absolutely not! (Rom. 6:15)
Suppressing conscience in order to sin can lead in one of two directions finally:
- continued suppression, to cope with the seared conscience caused by the previous suppression. On and on and on until the last breath is drawn (or the conscience is finally extinguished).
That is the unfortunate case of hardening the heart. The desired result of the Gospel is that the sinner confesses his or her sins, is cleansed totally of those sins in the blood of Jesus, and is impowered by the idwelling Spirit of the Lord Jesus to be free from the power of those sins.
That is God's way. We cannot improve upon it.
- the will of a person, whilst suppressing conscience in order to sin isn't prepared to suppress to the bitter end.
Some sinners will go to their grave unrepentent and having never confessed that they sinned.
They will perish forever in eternal retribution. Since it is not known at what time one will have her or is last day, it is best to confess and receive Christ when one becomes aware of His salvation.
"Seek the Lord while He can be found. Call upon Him while He is near. Let the wicked forsake his way and the unrighteous man his thoughts, and let him return to the Lord ... And He will abundantly pardon you ..." ( Close paraphrase. The passage escapes me at the moment ).
" ... the Holy Spirit says, Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts ..." (Hebrews 3:7,8a)
"Beware, brothers, lest perhaps there be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief in falling away from the living God." (v.12)
"He again designates a certain day, today, saying in David after so long a time, even as He has said before, TODAY, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts..." (Heb.4:7)
None of us know when our time is cut off on this earth. We are not assured to see the end of this very day. So the time to confess our sins and receive the Lord and Savior is today. Now is the day of salvation.
And for those who are already redeemed and save, we need time to allow the Spirit of Christ to saturate our personality, to soak us, to fill us for transformation. How much we are transformed by Jesus effects how much we can enjoy the coming kingdom age after His second coming.
It is unwilling to fully bury/ fully excuse/ fully justify what it knows to be evil - whilst finding itself unable to stop committing evil. In the measure it doesn't suppress, it must bear the pain of a seared conscience.
God knows that we are addicted. God knows that we cannot stop. God knows that we are led around by the nose to sin. God knows that many of us, after we have commited sin feel stupid not understanding why we did such a thing.
God knows that we are slaves of sin. What God needs is for us to admit it and receive Jesus as the Lord and Savior. He is the Great Physician that can heal. But we have to acknowledge that we are sick, sick with sinning and sick with the sin nature.
We express Satan. We do it spontaneously with little effort. What God does is crucify that influence in you and saturate you with another Person - Jesus Christ. He became in a form in which He can both enter into man and saturate man's personality. He is the life giving Spirit - "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
This life giving Spirit is the RECEIVABLE Christ. The life giving Spirit is the DIGESTABLE Christ - the Christ in a form in which He can be assimilated into one's being. To be life giving means to be God giving. God Himself is the eternal and uncreated life prepared in Christ to be imparted into man.
Then we grow to effortlessly and spontaneously express Christ. This is a matter of growth, transformation, and "metabolic" change in our soul as Jesus the life giving Spirit spreads His enfluence into every corner of our heart.
God's salvation is to reverse the ingestion of the Satanic spirit and the expression of the Satanic spirit in man, replacing it with the digestion of the Spirit of the Son of God for the expression of Christ, spontaneously in our living.
This is salvation in two parts:
1.) Judicially - we are justified and forgiven as if we had never sinned before God. We are justified for eternity to receive the gift of eternal life.
2.) We are organically tranformed in life by the life of Christ. That is Jesus Christ has been put in a form in which He "organically" can unite and join with man's being. This blends man with God. This mingles man with God until man is saturated with God and expressed Christ spontaneously.
God‘s Economy: recovered by Witness Lee, enjoyed by local churches
Hopefully, a persons continued sin will lead to increasing despair over their sin, to an impoverished spirit they at least can recognise - whatever the external appearances might indicate.
But do not delay to receive forgiveness and the living Lord Jesus.
When the light of God comes to a person, it is measured. You may have committed 100 sins today. When God comes He may make you aware of just six or seven of them. His full light would crush you. You are not aware to what degree you have offended His holiness, offended His righteousness, and insulted His glory for which you were created.
When you receive Christ the light will grow. And you will become gradually aware of more areas in which you have missed the mark. Not only in action you missed the mark. But in your inner most motive and imagination yoo began to go off. The light of Christ penetrates deeper and deeper. As you obey you gain more insight.
It is a process and it takes a lifetime of practice. But any thought that the sinner should hold on and sin more and more is not at all wise.
Sinning leave a scar. You may be forgiven by God. But the scar of your sin you may have to live with. Do you understand? You may curse your child in a fit of temper. Yes God will forgive your sin. But the consequences of that sin may not be so easily taken back. You damaged your honor. You damaged your child. God will forgive. Maybe your child will not be so willing to forgive or forget.
So another day of sinning for some strange philosophy is not good, is dangerous, and has the possibility to harden your heart. Sin is enjoyable. You have to stop that and enjoy something else. That is living Christ. Living Christ is an enjoyment which surpasses any eartly enjoyment known to man.
But if you postpone and procrastinate you run the risk of being "deceived by the deceitfulness of sin".. Satan is a liar. The sinning that one enjoys is a lie which is destroying your soul, corrupting you. And to delay and harden your heart may lead to eternal damnation.
So do not listen to advice to postpone being saved by Jesus from the guilt and power of sins.
Blessed are these impoverished in spirit - for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
That is true. That passage is spoken by Christ. But He said to hunger and thirst after righteousness. He did not say sin today and hunger and thirst for righteousness tomorrow.
Since we know that the sin nature is addicting and compulsive we should fear it as putting your hand into fire. We need the Victor who overcame the world - Jesus Christ. We need Him sooner rather than latter.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 387 by iano, posted 12-16-2008 8:26 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 392 by iano, posted 12-17-2008 8:36 AM jaywill has replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024