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Author Topic:   Why did God forgive our sins?
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 166 of 479 (477748)
08-07-2008 6:24 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by Legend
08-06-2008 6:22 PM


Re: Advocate of personal responsibility
Legend writes:
I always found it interesting when Christians try to shoehorn the philosophy of the originator of their religion into that of its founder.
Dovetail is the preferred term

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Legend, posted 08-06-2008 6:22 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Legend, posted 08-07-2008 5:37 PM iano has not replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5005 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


(1)
Message 167 of 479 (477786)
08-07-2008 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Phat
08-07-2008 6:09 AM


Re: Advocate of personal responsibility
For one thing, how seriously should we take Paul/Saul?
as seriously as we can take someone who didn't know Jesus and then suddenly started teaching things that Jesus didn't deem important enough or even plainly contradicted.
On what does one base their belief?
on whatever fits in with the world around us, just like we do with every other aspect of our life.
I myself personally believe that God does interact and commune through humans...many of whom are not religious. Again, this is a faith/belief issue and cannot be provable one way or another.
And that's fair enough, I respect that and am not going to argue against that. I only take issue with the dogmatic lot who proclaim that God can be found in the Bible and if you don't find him after you read it it's because you 'didn't read it with an open mind'.
IF Christians who did have the Holy Spirit were thus ambassadors of WOG, why would they so often be caught acting so foolishly and be so resistant to scientific logic and secular rationality?
See, if you replace "Holy Spirit" with "wilfull igonorance" or "dogmatic pig-headedness" it kind of makes sense!

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Phat, posted 08-07-2008 6:09 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5005 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 168 of 479 (477787)
08-07-2008 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by iano
08-07-2008 6:24 AM


Re: Advocate of personal responsibility
a new word in my vocabulary - thank you! Although.... your link claims the dovetail is
quote:
Noted for its resistance to being pulled apart.
The exact opposite of Christianity then!

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

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 Message 166 by iano, posted 08-07-2008 6:24 AM iano has not replied

  
JILL
Junior Member (Idle past 5698 days)
Posts: 1
Joined: 08-20-2008


Message 169 of 479 (478763)
08-20-2008 4:18 PM


The complete and correct logic for this point is supplied by Veda which states that even the family members love you because you are the instrument for their happiness and they are not loving you for your happiness (Atmanastu Kamaya Sarvam Priyam . ). You can test the truth by becoming reverse. If you are not supplying even the basic needs, they will leave you at once like the birds leaving a fruitless tree. It is your ignorance that you feel that the world or your family belongs to you and not the outsiders. This bond did not exist before you were borned and will not exist after the death. Just trust that God is there for you, no questions, and you will find him.
Jill
Oklahoma Drug Treatment
Edited by JILL, : No reason given.

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 170 of 479 (478995)
08-22-2008 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by fjp8000
06-05-2008 3:14 PM


If one believes in a God, then why did God send "his son" (himself??) down to earth in order to cleanse mankind of his sins..
The cleansing of man's sins is a remdial solution to bring man back to God's eternal purpose. Before sin was a problem God had an eternal plan for man. The entrance of sin caused man to veer away from the purpose for which he is created.
Since sin causes brings in separation from God sin had to be dealt with. The separation had to be dealt with so that it would be removed.
On one hand Christ came to deal with the problem of that separation. On the other hand Christ best exemplifies what the eternal plan of God for man is - to be united and one with God so that Man is divinized, deified, glorfied, and expresses the uncreated Divine Being within his created human vessel.
In short Jesus Christ is not only the Lord and Savior. Jesus Christ is also what God meant by Human Being. He will make His saved people like Himself.
When, in fact, he knew that man would sin again????
All those who are brought into union with Christ enter into a process the culmination of which will eventually yield them sinless.
Positionally they are justified forever. Dispositionally their souls and characters undergo a transformation that eventually brings them to be like Christ. This is to also bring man into his true identity. The foreign element of sin is removed.
The parasitic and leechlike sin nature is removed and man comes into his divinely created purpose to be filled with God and mingled with God - a God-man, just as Jesus is a God-man.
Does his action make any sense to anyone?
We can certainly understand enough to cooperate with God.
How about this? Maybe if he wanted to free us of sin.. Do it, and then say, “OK, everyone come on into heaven! There is no point in making you “suffer” your way into heaven.
If we were simply a chair or tree or something without our own wills, it might be that easy. But God created a creature which has the potential to cause Him considerable trouble. That is because we have our own free wills. This causes God some problems. But He prefered to create that kind of creature.
The destiny of the saved man is not really heaven. It is more a Person rather than a place. You should think of the destiny of salvation is to transform man into being Christ like - a human filled within with the living God and mingled with God.
The Bible closes with a symbol called New Jerusalem. The meaning of this symbol is the total mingling and incorporation of the Triune God into humanity to be one "organic" expression.
If this does not make sense to you simply think of God wanting to mass produce Jesus Christ into millions upon millions of saved people. And in the process He forms them into a "city". This city matches God and is even God Himself. But she is God dispensed into humanity to be the counterpart and Wife / Bride of the uncreated Divine Being.
Just come on up and give praise to me for all eternity.” After all, doesn't He want all of his "children" with him in heaven?
God's eternal purpose is to dispense Himself into man that man might be organically united and mingled with God.
Christ is the universal mingling of God and man. God's eternal purpose is to mass produce Christ the standard model of the perfect mingling of God and man.
It is for this purpose that we exist and why God created a universe.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by fjp8000, posted 06-05-2008 3:14 PM fjp8000 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by ICANT, posted 12-23-2008 11:59 AM jaywill has not replied
 Message 399 by Phat, posted 06-13-2014 3:46 PM jaywill has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 171 of 479 (487684)
11-03-2008 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by fjp8000
06-05-2008 3:14 PM


If one, as you say, believes scripture, then they would believe that all of God’s works are perfect. This would include our souls and natures. We are unable to go against these and should not so what is there for God to forgive in the first place?
Jesus found people full of demons. These are false ideas. He cast them out. An excellent Rabbi.
One of these was that God had somehow failed to produce perfect natures and He wanted them to know that God’s Perfect systems were well entrenched. Unfortunately, He had to die to remind us of the perfection we had forgotten about.
Same as today. If a God exists, the miracle worker that is, then things around us have to be Perfect.
God does not goof.
Have no fear God does not lose even one soul. There is no hell, just a heaven.
Regards
DL

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 Message 1 by fjp8000, posted 06-05-2008 3:14 PM fjp8000 has not replied

  
Bailey
Member (Idle past 4369 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 172 of 479 (487695)
11-03-2008 2:54 PM


Why did God forgive our sins?
The God knows the man did not choose to fault purposefully.
Respectively, man cannot evolve until he acknowledges this.

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by caldron68, posted 12-23-2008 11:14 AM Bailey has not replied

  
caldron68
Member (Idle past 3840 days)
Posts: 79
From: USA
Joined: 08-26-2007


Message 173 of 479 (491877)
12-23-2008 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by Bailey
11-03-2008 2:54 PM


All those who are brought into union with Christ enter into a process the culmination of which will eventually yield them sinless.
Positionally they are justified forever. Dispositionally their souls and characters undergo a transformation that eventually brings them to be like Christ. This is to also bring man into his true identity. The foreign element of sin is removed.
The parasitic and leechlike sin nature is removed and man comes into his divinely created purpose to be filled with God and mingled with God - a God-man, just as Jesus is a God-man.
In short, God has the ability to create the 'sinless' man but chooses to do so only in a manner that guarantees that there will be those that don't make it.
God does not have to do this. God is God. He could create the sinless man from the beginning, but chooses not to do so. If the foreign element of sin is be removed, this must mean that either man no longer knows what sin is, or knows what sin is but is incapable of sinning. Either way, God could have started from this point first, instead of starting from a point that guarantees that the vast majority of men will suffer for an eternity and only a select few will live, god like or god merged, in heaven.
In the end, God will have created a system in which there is far more misery than there is joy.
Cheers,
--Caldron68

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Bailey, posted 11-03-2008 2:54 PM Bailey has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by ICANT, posted 12-23-2008 11:44 AM caldron68 has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 174 of 479 (491879)
12-23-2008 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by caldron68
12-23-2008 11:14 AM


Re sinless
Hi caldron68,
caldron68 writes:
In short, God has the ability to create the 'sinless' man but chooses to do so only in a manner that guarantees that there will be those that don't make it.
But God did create a sinless man.
God placed him in a beautiful paradise.
But God made that man with the ability to choose.
God gave the man one rule.
Man chose to disobey.
That man just like you had a choice.
You can choose to obey and accept a free full pardon from God or you can choose to not accept that pardon. The decision is yours. So don't blame the first man or God for your decision.
Neither can you or any of those who made the wrong decision blame God for their decision.
Well I guess you could because you already have.
caldron68 writes:
In the end, God will have created a system in which there is far more misery than there is joy.
Actually He created a system in which He allowed man to choose how much joy or misery there would be.
Everyone can choose to believe and trust in God.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by caldron68, posted 12-23-2008 11:14 AM caldron68 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Agobot, posted 12-23-2008 12:34 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 177 by caldron68, posted 12-23-2008 2:34 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 175 of 479 (491880)
12-23-2008 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by jaywill
08-22-2008 10:51 PM


Re purpose
Hi jay,
jaywill writes:
Since sin causes brings in separation from God sin had to be dealt with. The separation had to be dealt with so that it would be removed.
I thought the whole purpose of man having the choice to obey or not to obey is what the whole thing was all about.
We all have a choice today because the first man had a choice and he exercised his choice to disobey a direct order of God.
This act separated man and God.
Jesus provided a way man could be restored to fellowship with God.
Every person that reaches the ability to choose between good and evil will make a choice.
They will either choose to accept God's way or they will choose to refuse God's way and try to make their own way and rules.
In other words man can do things God's way.
or
Man can do things his way.
God's way equals eternal bliss.
Man's way equals eternal death in the lake of fire.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by jaywill, posted 08-22-2008 10:51 PM jaywill has not replied

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5529 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 176 of 479 (491881)
12-23-2008 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by ICANT
12-23-2008 11:44 AM


Re: Re sinless
ICANT writes:
Actually He created a system in which He allowed man to choose how much joy or misery there would be.
But why did God create such a flawed Adam that would choose to do stupid things like eating from the forbidden tree? When my car breaks down, does the fault lie with the car or with the designers of the car? Even if Adam had free will, why was he created so stupid and unintelligent as to do silly things? You are indirectly blaming God, as Adam was allegedly a COMPLETE creation of God. And what does my child have to do with the sins of Adam? Following the same path of logic, shouldn't you ICANT and your relatives be punished for what the 9/11 terrorists did to the WTC? When is God going to snap out of his 6000-year anger?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by ICANT, posted 12-23-2008 11:44 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by ICANT, posted 12-23-2008 3:57 PM Agobot has not replied

  
caldron68
Member (Idle past 3840 days)
Posts: 79
From: USA
Joined: 08-26-2007


(1)
Message 177 of 479 (491886)
12-23-2008 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by ICANT
12-23-2008 11:44 AM


Re: Re sinless
ICANT writes:
But God did create a sinless man.
Read what I wrote. God did create the sinless man, but only in a manner that guarantees that the vast majority of men, in fact all men, will not remain sinless.
God's ultimate goal is to create the sinless man, or at least the man that knows sin but is incapable of doing so. All I am pointing out is that God could have started from this point, but he didn't. He started from a point that guarantees that there will be more misery than joy.
ICANT writes:
You can choose to obey and accept a free full pardon from God or you can choose to not accept that pardon. The decision is yours. So don't blame the first man or God for your decision.
Hold it, either we have free will or we don't. If Adam made his mistake because of his own free will, then God should have punished Adam but not the rest of us. But that's not how the story plays out. Adam sinned and God cast the whole lot of us out of the garden. This indicates to me that God knows, because of Adam's actions, that we're all basically sinners. This indicates that, free will or not, the fundamental design predisposes us to sin. A system that God himself created! A system that promises to create more misery than joy.
ICANT writes:
Neither can you or any of those who made the wrong decision blame God for their decision.
Well I guess you could because you already have.
Yes I can! The system works as designed and in the end there will be more misery than joy. It's that simple. What kind of 'love' creates more misery than joy?
ICANT writes:
Actually He created a system in which He allowed man to choose how much joy or misery there would be.
Then God is not omniscient and thus not God! He created the system knowing full well what the outcome would be. More misery than joy.
ICANT writes:
Everyone can choose to believe and trust in God.
Trust must be earned.
Cheers,
--Caldron68

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by ICANT, posted 12-23-2008 11:44 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by ICANT, posted 12-23-2008 5:01 PM caldron68 has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 178 of 479 (491888)
12-23-2008 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Agobot
12-23-2008 12:34 PM


Re sinless
Hi Agobot,
Agobot writes:
But why did God create such a flawed Adam that would choose to do stupid things like eating from the forbidden tree?
So you could argue with me as to why He did it.
Had He made the first man with no choice that man would still be in the garden walking and talking with God.
You and I would not exist.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Agobot, posted 12-23-2008 12:34 PM Agobot has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 179 of 479 (491891)
12-23-2008 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by caldron68
12-23-2008 2:34 PM


Re sinless
Hi caldron68,
caldron68 writes:
Read what I wrote. God did create the sinless man, but only in a manner that guarantees that the vast majority of men, in fact all men, will not remain sinless.
Yes all are sinners because of the sin on the first man.
So what?
God fixed that problem all you have to do is accept His full pardon.
caldron68 writes:
God's ultimate goal is to create the sinless man,
Thanks for that information, but what is that based on?
I been studying God for 62 years and I have never read where God gave His ultimate goal.
I do know one goal that God has, Peter summed it up this way.
2Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
God desires for all men to place their faith in Him and spend eternity with Him. But He left it up to man to choose whether he wanted to.
caldron68 writes:
Hold it, either we have free will or we don't.
Actually you don't have free will. The first man made the first choice for you.
You can only choose to go to heaven if you so desire.
caldron68 writes:
A system that promises to create more misery than joy.
You are assuming the devil wins and there will be more in the lake of fire with him than in heaven with God. I doubt that with the abortion rate what it is today 88 per minute. God gets all those. Then you add all those that abort naturally. God gets all those too.
Then you include the millions of infants and small children who have not come to know good and evil yet who are starving to death every minute. God gets all those also. I got the feeling there will be more in heaven than the lake of fire.
caldron68 writes:
Then God is not omniscient and thus not God! He created the system knowing full well what the outcome would be. More misery than joy.
God counted the cost before He created man. He viewed the end and the beginning at the same time just as He does today. We are creatures of time and space God is not. With Him there is only one great big now.
He knows the outcome of the experiment.
caldron68 you asserted 4 times in message 177 that, "there will be more misery than joy".
Do you have something to base that assertion on?
Or is that just your personal belief?
Or are you just bringing a railing accusation against God?
caldron68 writes:
Trust must be earned.
Tell the airline pilot that the next time you get on an airplane.
Because when you step on that plane your life is in his hands and the aircraft.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by caldron68, posted 12-23-2008 2:34 PM caldron68 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by caldron68, posted 12-23-2008 7:40 PM ICANT has replied

  
caldron68
Member (Idle past 3840 days)
Posts: 79
From: USA
Joined: 08-26-2007


Message 180 of 479 (491896)
12-23-2008 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by ICANT
12-23-2008 5:01 PM


Re: Re sinless
God counted the cost before He created man. He viewed the end and the beginning at the same time just as He does today. We are creatures of time and space God is not. With Him there is only one great big now.
Really? Did God share his spread-sheet with you to show you those figures? Are you God's personal spokes person here on Earth? Sounds to me like you speak as if you KNOW what God's plans are.
caldron68 you asserted 4 times in message 177 that, "there will be more misery than joy".
Do you have something to base that assertion on?
Luke 12:32 Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom.
Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Matt 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. [14]But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Matt 7:21-23 Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [22]Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' [23]Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
Matt 22:14 14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
Luke 13:23-24 23Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?" He said to them, 24"Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.
Need any more passages from the Bible ICANT? Not to mention that it is the Christian belief that the only way to get to heaven is through the Son. Do all religions believe in the Son? The answer is NO. According to Christian doctrine, billions of people will not be chosen to go to heaven.
So, my point stands. God has created a system that will result in more misery than Joy.
Tell the airline pilot that the next time you get on an airplane.
Because when you step on that plane your life is in his hands and the aircraft.
I trust the airlines and the airline pilot because they have a stunning track record of success. You have nothing but blind faith and from what I can see, your faith has made you blind.
Cheers,
--Caldron68

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by ICANT, posted 12-23-2008 5:01 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by jaywill, posted 12-24-2008 9:26 AM caldron68 has replied
 Message 184 by ICANT, posted 12-24-2008 1:40 PM caldron68 has replied

  
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