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Author Topic:   Why did God forgive our sins?
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 181 of 479 (491918)
12-24-2008 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by caldron68
12-23-2008 7:40 PM


Re: Re sinless
Need any more passages from the Bible ICANT? Not to mention that it is the Christian belief that the only way to get to heaven is through the Son. Do all religions believe in the Son? The answer is NO. According to Christian doctrine, billions of people will not be chosen to go to heaven.
So, my point stands. God has created a system that will result in more misery than Joy.
Are you suggesting that God should just allow a creation to exist in which unrighteousness and sin simply run wild forever? We endlessly commit our crimes against one another? Really happy place, huh? No misery there?
You imagine that as a joyful existence? You imagine a Great Permissive God who is indifferent towards justice, peace, and goodness, simply allows every being to have or not have any moral value.
How does that work, that God could keep everyone happy in that kind of place?
What about those who want nothing to do with their Creator? They need their own place. You imagine that the Creator should just lump them all together, those who love Him and those who hate Him, in one happy existence?
How does that work?
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by caldron68, posted 12-23-2008 7:40 PM caldron68 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by caldron68, posted 12-24-2008 10:24 AM jaywill has replied

  
caldron68
Member (Idle past 3841 days)
Posts: 79
From: USA
Joined: 08-26-2007


Message 182 of 479 (491926)
12-24-2008 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by jaywill
12-24-2008 9:26 AM


Re: Re sinless
Are you suggesting that God should just allow a creation to exist in which unrighteousness and sin simply run wild forever? We endlessly commit our crimes against one another? Really happy place, huh? No misery there?
You imagine that as a joyful existence? You imagine a Great Permissive God who is indifferent towards justice, peace, and goodness, simply allows every being to have or not have any moral value.
How does that work, that God could keep everyone happy in that kind of place?
What about those who want nothing to do with their Creator? They need their own place. You imagine that the Creator should just lump them all together, those who love Him and those who hate Him, in one happy existence?
How does that work?
No Jaywill, I'm simply pointing out the difference between the system we have now and the system that God will eventually create.
In a previous post you said this:
jaywill writes:
All those who are brought into union with Christ enter into a process the culmination of which will eventually yield them sinless.
Positionally they are justified forever. Dispositionally their souls and characters undergo a transformation that eventually brings them to be like Christ. This is to also bring man into his true identity. The foreign element of sin is removed.
The parasitic and leechlike sin nature is removed and man comes into his divinely created purpose to be filled with God and mingled with God - a God-man, just as Jesus is a God-man.
My point is that if God can remove the element of sin, then he probably should have done that to begin with. God is God, no? What is the point of the current system if in the end it will create more misery than joy. And what does that result say about the designer?
In the end those that make it into heaven will have their sin removed. This means that either their sin will be completely removed, and they no longer know what sin is, or they will know what sin is but will be incapable of sinning. In either case the end result is a sinless system. And since this will be the case, then obviously God can create a sinless system but has chosen not to do so for his creation on Earth. Why?
So, the statement stands. God has created a system that will result in more misery than joy. In fact, I think I'll embellish this statement a little. How's this one:
God has created a system that will result in far more misery than joy.
Cheers,
--Caldron68
Edited by caldron68, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by jaywill, posted 12-24-2008 9:26 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-24-2008 12:50 PM caldron68 has replied
 Message 198 by jaywill, posted 12-26-2008 10:15 AM caldron68 has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 183 of 479 (491934)
12-24-2008 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by caldron68
12-24-2008 10:24 AM


Re: Re sinless
Cal writes:
So, the statement stands. God has created a system that will result in more misery than joy. In fact, I think I'll embellish this statement a little. How's this one:
God has created a system that will result in far more misery than joy.
I am not sure where you are at on the point I am about to address, but i will make it and you can determine as you will its merit.
One would need to demonstrate that Gods act of creating creatures with free will was bad or unjustified before any attempts could be made to designate his actions as resulting in more misery than joy are immmoral. It may be true that this will be the end result, however a better attempt should be made to understand the nature of free will in this context. Ironically you yourself are a perfect example of exacally what I am speaking about. You have before you all this information and you are choosing (exercising free will) to reject it, because it does not suit your purposes. Thats the nature of free will that exonerates God from any wrong doing or bad decisions, so to speak.
Others will have ten thousand different opinions than yours. As Jaywill pointed out, from who's shall he choose?
Secondly, he has provided a solution to this seeming problem through Jesus Christ, that provides a way for any and all to avoid this conclusion.
Even from a finite situation, your logic would suggest that we as humans should never act because the results would affect something in a negative fashion.
You failure in this context will always run straight into and fly in the face of the nature and beauty of free will. Besides salvation, free will is the single greatest given to mankind. Even if one complains that they did not ask to be here in the first place, the nature of free will and Gods gift of salvation, sets it in a category that it cannot be criticized or condemned. You have no way to complain that will be acceptable or justified. The complaint that some may disobey falls short because it could simply be demonstrated that they also have a choice to not disobey.
The act of creating free will is not only amazing and wonderful but shows the height of intelligence.
Imagine if you will for a minute a scenerio. God says "let us make man in our image". If indeed the angelic host are the US in Genesis, They complain to God "Won't some disobey?" And God says I have a plan for that as well, I will go down and do for them what they cannot do for themselves. Then the angelic host say, "oh yeah, but will be the cost to human race? He replies nothing except to accept the Gift and live as I wish them to as my creation. Can you imagine the expressions on the angelic hosts face? And what will be thier complaint, or what quetion could they offer in response ?
Pretty impressive, this Free Will-Salvation thingy, wouldnt you say?
D Bertot
Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by caldron68, posted 12-24-2008 10:24 AM caldron68 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by caldron68, posted 12-24-2008 2:09 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 184 of 479 (491935)
12-24-2008 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by caldron68
12-23-2008 7:40 PM


Re sinless
Hi caldron68,
caldron68 writes:
Are you God's personal spokes person here on Earth?
For the past 46 years I have been one of His spokesmen.
You do know blue on blue is hard to read, don't you?
Now lets get into a little theology.
caldron68 writes:
Luke 12:32 Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom.
Why did you not explain what the scripture was talking about rather than to cherry pick a verse that you thought backed up your assertion.
Jesus writes:
12:22 And he said unto his disciples, Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body, what ye shall put on.
12:23 The life is more than meat, and the body is more than raiment.
12:24 Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls?
12:25 And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?
12:26 If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest?
12:27 Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
12:28 If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?
12:29 And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind.
12:30 For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things.
12:31 But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.
In verse 22-32 Jesus addresses his disciples which just prior to pentecost numbered 120.
Jesus is speaking to His Church and yes it is a small group because the requirements to be a member are pretty strict. It takes a lot more to get in this group than it does to get into heaven. All you have to do to go to heaven is be born again. To be in The Lord's Church you have to meet His requirements.
This verse of scripture does not say there will be a small number in heaven.
caldron68 writes:
Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
The JW'S used this number until their membership grew past it then they had to modify.
We are told a little more about this 144,000 in:
Revelation 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
It seems there was 12,000 from each tribe of Israel tht were singled out for a special reason.
caldron68 writes:
Matt 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. [14]But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Yes there is only one way to heaven and that entrance is very small.
Jesus writes:
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
That does kind of narrow it down now doesn't it.
caldron68 writes:
Matt 7:21-23 Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [22]Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' [23]Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
Yes, a lot of people claim to be a Christian. But they have never been born again.
This just limits who will be in heaven not the number.
caldron68 writes:
Matt 22:14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
Yes everyone is invited but not all will accept the invitation to be born again.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Whosoever. That means anybody including you.
That does not limit the number in heaven.
caldron68 writes:
Luke 13:23-24, 23Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?" He said to them, 24"Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.
Yes, many will not be able. In fact all those who will not receive Jesus Christ as their personal saviour will not be allowed in heaven.
But that does not limit the number that will receive Jesus and go to heaven.
caldron68 writes:
Need any more passages from the Bible ICANT?
Since you have not produced one that backs up your assertion, yes I need some to back up your assertion.
While you are at it maybe you can explain:
Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
A great multitude that no man could number.
Sounds like quite a few in heaven to me.
caldron68 writes:
I trust the airlines and the airline pilot because they have a stunning track record of success.
I am sure that the thousands who have lost loved ones in plane crashes would not agree with you.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by caldron68, posted 12-23-2008 7:40 PM caldron68 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by caldron68, posted 12-24-2008 1:59 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 188 by Agobot, posted 12-24-2008 5:27 PM ICANT has replied

  
caldron68
Member (Idle past 3841 days)
Posts: 79
From: USA
Joined: 08-26-2007


Message 185 of 479 (491940)
12-24-2008 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by ICANT
12-24-2008 1:40 PM


Re: Re sinless
ICANT writes:
Since you have not produced one that backs up your assertion, yes I need some to back up your assertion.
Yes I have. Here it is again:
Matt 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. [14]But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
The key here is the last few words and only a few find it.
There's no mistaking what is being said here. It plainly shows that the road to hell is wide and that many will enter through and that the gate to heaven is narrow and few will find the way.
Quote any other scripture you like. The Christian doctrine holds that there will be fewer in heaven than in hell. Period.
And, as I pointed out in a previous post, this is just from the Christian doctrine. If the Christian Doctrine is correct, it means that those of other faiths are just out of luck. It was either you or Jaywill that said that Hindus will not go to heaven and the fault for this lies with their Fathers. That's a whole lot of people that are not going to Heaven.
So, you tell me (or show me, for that matter) where it is written that there will be far MORE people in Heaven than there will be in Hell. Can you? Don't just tear apart the little passages that I have provided and try to deflect the issue.
Until you can do this you must admit that the system will produce more misery than it will joy. It's that simple.
Cheers,
--Caldon68

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by ICANT, posted 12-24-2008 1:40 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-24-2008 2:21 PM caldron68 has not replied
 Message 191 by ICANT, posted 12-25-2008 12:01 AM caldron68 has replied

  
caldron68
Member (Idle past 3841 days)
Posts: 79
From: USA
Joined: 08-26-2007


Message 186 of 479 (491941)
12-24-2008 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Dawn Bertot
12-24-2008 12:50 PM


Re: Re sinless
One would need to demonstrate that Gods act of creating creatures with free will was bad or unjustified before any attempts could be made to designate his actions as resulting in more misery than joy are immmoral. It may be true that this will be the end result, however a better attempt should be made to understand the nature of free will in this context. Ironically you yourself are a perfect example of exacally what I am speaking about. You have before you all this information and you are choosing (exercising free will) to reject it, because it does not suit your purposes. Thats the nature of free will that exonerates God from any wrong doing or bad decisions, so to speak.
Free will has nothing to do with it. Look back at the message where I directly quote Jaywill. He plainly says that God will create the sinless man, it's only a matter of time. The point I have been trying to get across is that if God can do this, he should have done it the first time around.
Yes, it is my opinion that the current system is unnecessary, just like Noah's flood. The end result is that God will have his New Jerusalem and sinless men. The problem is that he has chosen to first construct a system that will leave more in misery than in Joy.
Secondly, he has provided a solution to this seeming problem through Jesus Christ, that provides a way for any and all to avoid this conclusion.
I guess nobody actually reads my posts. Is it true that not all religions recognize Jesus Christ as the savior? If the way to God is through Jesus Christ then far more will not find God than do.
What a system. What a design. Perhaps it's just a story and has no real foundations in reality. Hmmmm.
Cheers,
--Caldron68

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-24-2008 12:50 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-24-2008 9:03 PM caldron68 has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 187 of 479 (491944)
12-24-2008 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by caldron68
12-24-2008 1:59 PM


Re: Re sinless
Matt 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. [14]But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
The key here is the last few words and only a few find it.
There's no mistaking what is being said here. It plainly shows that the road to hell is wide and that many will enter through and that the gate to heaven is narrow and few will find the way.
Quote any other scripture you like. The Christian doctrine holds that there will be fewer in heaven than in hell. Period.
I dunno, and I might be being a little pedantic here, but that verse alone only says that many enter through the gate to the road to destruction but not that they actually go to the end of the road and reach distruction.
Maybe there is a cross-street or something so you get from the wide road to the narrow one later after you've already gone throught the gate.
So, you tell me (or show me, for that matter) where it is written that there will be far MORE people in Heaven than there will be in Hell. Can you?
He already did:
quote:
Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
ABE:
Actually, that doesn't say more than won't...... my bad.
Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by caldron68, posted 12-24-2008 1:59 PM caldron68 has not replied

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5530 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 188 of 479 (491947)
12-24-2008 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by ICANT
12-24-2008 1:40 PM


Re: Re sinless
ICANT writes:
Yes, many will not be able. In fact all those who will not receive Jesus Christ as their personal saviour will not be allowed in heaven.
But that does not limit the number that will receive Jesus and go to heaven.
I think heaven would be devoid of people as we are all sinners, but let's keep this aside.
How would heaven feel if you didn't find all of your relatives there? How would you feel in heaven if you knew your father or other loved ones must have gone to hell?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by ICANT, posted 12-24-2008 1:40 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by ICANT, posted 12-24-2008 11:28 PM Agobot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 189 of 479 (491969)
12-24-2008 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by caldron68
12-24-2008 2:09 PM


Re: Re sinless
Cal writes:
Free will has nothing to do with it. Look back at the message where I directly quote Jaywill. He plainly says that God will create the sinless man, it's only a matter of time. The point I have been trying to get across is that if God can do this, he should have done it the first time around.
It is no surprise to me that you dismiss Free Will out of the picture, because it is the one thing that demonstrates that Gods actions in creating and providing a plan by which man could get back to him (salvation) forevermore do away with any complaints that could be offered against his actions. Your wave of the hand debaing to dismiss this very Biblical principle does not make it go away. You would need to disregard all of the passages, that both state directly and imply free will in this matter, to make it have no application. Your task is both insurmountable and ridiculous
Certainly you are not so simply as to NOT see that what Jaywill means by create the sinless man, is that God has provided a way in which man as a result of exercising his free will (presently)can overcome the earlier decision (free will)which caused him to seprate himself in the first place. God did exacally the thing you are complaining he did not in the beginning, he created a perfect person, in his image, which exercised his free will to disregard Gods wishes in the first place.
Your sugggestion that Free will has nothing to do with it is nonsensical and is a blatant disregard for the hundreds of scriptures which suggest that man has a choice to obey or not obey God.
"Him that knoweth to good and doeth it not, it is sin"
"For if we sin willfully after we have recieved a knowledge of the truth there remains no more sacrifice for sin"
Yes, it is my opinion that the current system is unnecessary, just like Noah's flood. The end result is that God will have his New Jerusalem and sinless men. The problem is that he has chosen to first construct a system that will leave more in misery than in Joy.
The above comment is nearly amusing. If God had created man, gave him free will, then punished him REGARDLESS of his decisions, you would be complaining about that. If he had created and without free will and punished him for actions for which he was not responsible, you would complain about that. Instead the perfect situation exists and you even complain about that. Now could one believe you are being remotely reasonable, or just complaining because you dont like the results. Is you complaint legitimate, absolutely not.
Your question would make more sense if you were to ask, why do people choose to ignore and disregard His will. In this regard and in this context you are assuming for the sake of argument that the Bible is his will, as you are complaing about the plan an its results, from a Biblical perspective. In doing so you are also indirectly implying that the "possibility" exists, that God is the author and the results that follow. So please dont say that, all this is a myth and not Gods will at all, so it doesnt matter.
So to stay on course, It does not make sense to complain about the results of free will, since in each case it is the choice of the man to decide his fate.
Perhaps you could provide a course of action that would be consistent with an infinite perspective on these issues, assuming that the totality of scriptures is correct about the nature of God, specifically that he is infinte in wisdom. You see, you cant complain about the results of some passages without taking into consideration the total nature and charcater of God. If you do you cannot be taken seriously, as your complaint is DERIVED from the scriptures in the first place.
perhaps you would like to make an attempt at showing that the sciptures contradict themselves, in the respect of free will and ensuing punishment? A simple compalint about the results of this or that without a overall perspective will not be valid as a reasonable argument.
I guess nobody actually reads my posts. Is it true that not all religions recognize Jesus Christ as the savior? If the way to God is through Jesus Christ then far more will not find God than do.
What a system. What a design. Perhaps it's just a story and has no real foundations in reality. Hmmmm.
And this is excally my point. When the skeptic gets a clearer picture of what the scripture has to say in its totality about an issue, they quickly retreat to the ole, well none of it is true inthe first place. But they are quick to assume that God exists and his nature and plans are inconsistent, while it serves thier purposes. Hmmmmmmmmmm?
D Bertot
Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by caldron68, posted 12-24-2008 2:09 PM caldron68 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by caldron68, posted 12-26-2008 11:15 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 190 of 479 (491975)
12-24-2008 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by Agobot
12-24-2008 5:27 PM


Re sinless
Hi Agobot,
Agobot writes:
I think heaven would be devoid of people as we are all sinners, but let's keep this aside.
True if there was no remedy for the problem of sin.
"GoodNews" There is a remedy.
Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Agobot the only difference in a saved sinner and a lost sinner is the blood of Jesus Christ.
We are all sinners, none worthy of or deserving forgiveness. That is why God provided His grace for us.
Agobot writes:
How would heaven feel if you didn't find all of your relatives there?
Worse than the lake of fire.
But worse than that is The Great White Throne Judgment. Where all the lost will be judged. I will see everyone that I have talked to in my lifetime. Even those I never mentioned Christ too. There will be many in that day that will point a finger at me and say why didn't you tell me about Jesus and His saving power. There will be those who will say why didn't you bug me about being saved just one more time. The line will be endless and my pain will be great. I will see my friends and family members who never trusted Christ for salvation cast into the lake of fire.
That will be a terrible day for me.
That is why God will wipe away all the tears from my eyes.
Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
In other words God has to blot out all the bad memories, or heaven would be a place of misery.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Agobot, posted 12-24-2008 5:27 PM Agobot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by Agobot, posted 12-25-2008 5:56 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 193 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-25-2008 10:37 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 202 by caldron68, posted 12-26-2008 11:18 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 466 by Aussie, posted 12-11-2017 9:49 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 467 by Aussie, posted 12-11-2017 9:52 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 191 of 479 (491976)
12-25-2008 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by caldron68
12-24-2008 1:59 PM


Re sinless
Hi caldron68,
Well at least we are down to one scripture as you did not provide any more as I asked.
caldron writes:
Yes I have. Here it is again:
Matt 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. [14]But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
The key here is the last few words and only a few find it.
I really didn't know anyone was looking for the narrow gate, and narrow way.
I thought everyone was looking for their own way since everybody has the knowledge of good and evil.
I do find a lot of people that are shown where the gate is they gladly walk through it.
The Bible teaches something about this.
Paul writing to the people at Rome said:
Romans
10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
That sounds like Paul thought the entire lost world was seeking the narrow way doesn't it? I don't think so.
Verse 13 Whosoever shall call.
Verse 14 But if they have not believed how can they call?
They must first hear the Word of God.
How can they hear without a preacher?
Verse 17 Faith cometh by hearing the Word of God.
Man has to listen to God. But most today have shut their minds to God's Word.
caldron68 writes:
The key here is the last few words and only a few find it.
In all fairness I do find one man in the Bible who was searching for the narrow way.
8:27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
8:28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.
8:29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
8:31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
8:32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
8:33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
8:34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
The man of Ethiopia was truly seeking the narrow way and God sent a man to explain what he was trying to understand.
This man admitted he did not understand what he was reading.
He said he needed someone to show him the way.
caldron68 writes:
So, you tell me (or show me, for that matter) where it is written that there will be far MORE people in Heaven than there will be in Hell. Can you? Don't just tear apart the little passages that I have provided and try to deflect the issue.
The verse of scriture you quoted says the way is narrow and few there be that find it.
I agree.
I also know that a lot will be shown the way by others who know where the gate is.
Trying to find that gate by oneself is like trying to find the needle in the haystack. Kinda hard.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by caldron68, posted 12-24-2008 1:59 PM caldron68 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by caldron68, posted 12-26-2008 11:22 AM ICANT has not replied

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5530 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 192 of 479 (491985)
12-25-2008 5:56 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by ICANT
12-24-2008 11:28 PM


Re: Re sinless
Agobot writes:
How would heaven feel if you didn't find all of your relatives there?
ICANT writes:
Worse than the lake of fire.
But worse than that is The Great White Throne Judgment. Where all the lost will be judged. I will see everyone that I have talked to in my lifetime. Even those I never mentioned Christ too. There will be many in that day that will point a finger at me and say why didn't you tell me about Jesus and His saving power. There will be those who will say why didn't you bug me about being saved just one more time. The line will be endless and my pain will be great. I will see my friends and family members who never trusted Christ for salvation cast into the lake of fire.
That will be a terrible day for me.
That is why God will wipe away all the tears from my eyes.
In other words God has to blot out all the bad memories, or heaven would be a place of misery.
This doesn't sound right. If that were the case, i'd rather burn in hell with all my loved ones.
BTW how does the bible explain the obvious paradox that we were created by god at some point, but since then we become immortal and timeless(though we also tend to equate infinities to integers)?
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by ICANT, posted 12-24-2008 11:28 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by ICANT, posted 12-25-2008 3:32 PM Agobot has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3102 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


(1)
Message 193 of 479 (491987)
12-25-2008 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by ICANT
12-24-2008 11:28 PM


Re: Re sinless
ICANT writes:
But worse than that is The Great White Throne Judgment. Where all the lost will be judged. I will see everyone that I have talked to in my lifetime. Even those I never mentioned Christ too. There will be many in that day that will point a finger at me and say why didn't you tell me about Jesus and His saving power. There will be those who will say why didn't you bug me about being saved just one more time. The line will be endless and my pain will be great. I will see my friends and family members who never trusted Christ for salvation cast into the lake of fire.
That will be a terrible day for me.
That is why God will wipe away all the tears from my eyes.
ICANT writes:
In other words God has to blot out all the bad memories, or heaven would be a place of misery.
Wow, what an ironic statement! Does this not go against the Christian belief of free will. You are trying to tell us that a supernatural being created human beings with the ability to free choose their eternal state i.e. heaven or hell, deliberately placing not only the choice but the instrument of their eternal destruction within their grasp and in the end he will blot out their memory of this decision by a select few as well as the eternal fate of their friends and family, many of whom will be burning in torment of hell FOR ETERNITY. Yeah, what a terrible day it will be for you? What do you think of how it would feel for all the people going to your hell?
But he is a loving god! Who cares if others are going to hell as long as I get there, after all he will wipe my memory away of all the great memories of my family even if they are going to hell. Wow, you must have terrible family relations and must hate this life so much, if all that you care about is how happy you will be living your eternal life in heaven with your monster god despite the billions of people who will live in ETERNAL TORMENT!
What upsets me is not that this will actually happen but that people would entertain these evil thoughts of eternal destruction and torment on the rest of society including their family and friends while you and other selected Christians live in eternal bliss. This is outright disgusting and selfish.
I am sorry but even when I was a Christian, I never, ever thought along these lines. Your statement, ICANT, is probably the most self-centered, disgusting and morally repugnant remarks I have ever heard. And you really wonder why people are turned off by your religious beliefs.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by ICANT, posted 12-24-2008 11:28 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by ICANT, posted 12-25-2008 3:48 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 194 of 479 (492002)
12-25-2008 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by Agobot
12-25-2008 5:56 AM


Re sinless
Hi Agobot,
Agobot writes:
This doesn't sound right. If that were the case, i'd rather burn in hell with all my loved ones.
Right or wrong that is the way it is according to the Bible.
Now as far as being in hell with all your loved ones goes, do you think you will get to see anybody in hell or know that somebody is in hell. I find no scripture to that effect.
As I understand it being in the lake of fire will be like being in the hole in prison. Except no one will ever come and serve you bread and water.
In heaven we will know everyone by name and we will not miss anyone that we have known on earth that is not there.
Agobot writes:
BTW how does the bible explain the obvious paradox that we were created by god at some point, but since then we become immortal and timeless
Good question.
The man in Genesis 1:26-27 was created in the image of God. God is an eternal being.
Therefore since we are created in His image we are eternal beings.
But to answer how could we be created and be eternal.
Everything is eternal.
No thing has ever had a beginning, everything has always been here.
It was just arranged differently than it is now.
I had a Hebrew teacher back in the 60's who explained it this way.
In the realm or sphere of the beginnings God literally tore from Himself everything that exists today.
Yet today everything exists within God as He is everywhere.
Acts writes:
17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
In Him we live, move and have our being.
Colossians writes:
1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Everything has it's existence in, by and through God.
My definition of God.
God is everything that ever was, is, or ever will be in whatever form He chooses for it to be.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Agobot, posted 12-25-2008 5:56 AM Agobot has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 468 by Aussie, posted 12-11-2017 10:05 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 195 of 479 (492003)
12-25-2008 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by DevilsAdvocate
12-25-2008 10:37 AM


Re sinless
Hi DA,
DevilsAdvocate writes:
This is outright disgusting and selfish.
Is it selfish of me to tell you that you have the same opportunity to go to heaven as I do.
All you have to do is be born again.
That is the only choice you have.
It is up to you.
Choose you this day whom you will serve.
DevilsAdvocate writes:
Your statement, ICANT, is probably the most self-centered, disgusting and morally repugnant remarks I have ever heard.
That is a case of the pot calling the kettle black.
I admit I am just a wreched sinner undeserving of God's love.
But at least I am a born again sinner.
If you think the comments I have made here are repugnant you should come and hear me preach sometime.
I talk about how unthankful, unholy and ungodly we are.
None of us deserving the grace of God.
Everyone of us ought to have to go to the lake of fire.
But I don't have to deserve to go to heaven.
All I have to do is be washed in the blood of the lamb.
BTW you may have professed to be a christian but from your language and message you have never been Christ Like.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-25-2008 10:37 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-25-2008 6:35 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 469 by Aussie, posted 12-11-2017 10:20 AM ICANT has not replied

  
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