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Author Topic:   Why did God forgive our sins?
caldron68
Member (Idle past 3841 days)
Posts: 79
From: USA
Joined: 08-26-2007


Message 211 of 479 (492110)
12-28-2008 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 207 by ICANT
12-27-2008 5:10 PM


Re: Re sinless
Yes as usual caldron68 is confused.
I said God would have to wipe away all the bad memories or Heaven would be full of misery.
You are correct God will not erase our memory. I will even know who you are when I meet you in Heaven.
You make these statements and you think I am confused? I was simply repeating what you said. That God would have to erase your memory or Heaven would be full of misery. I guess what you really meant is that God will only have to erase part of your memory. That is, the memory of anybody who did not make it into heaven. He will not erase the memory of those that do make it into memory.
In short, in order for your stay in heaven to not be miserable, God will only have to erase some of your memory.
When Jesus returns we will receive a body like He has got. A perfect one.
I thought we were perfect.
When we have learned everything there is for us to know to prepare us to meet God in the New Jerusalem when He comes down and lives with us, God will wipe away anything that would hinder us in fulfilling His purpose.
This is central to the point that I have made. God will have to modify man in order for man to fulfill his purpose.
I think he has more that one problem concerning what the Bible says.
At present there are 88 abortions performed every minute. There are 30 children that die of starvation every minute. This 118 who go out into eternity do not have to find the narrow way or the straight gate.
etc...
I guess it's OK to refute the Bible when it suits your needs, right ICANT? Can you please quote the scripture that says that there will be more people in Heaven than there will be in hell? I have already shown you the scripture that says that few will find their way to heaven.
The current world death rate is 104.1666 per minute.
If you take away the 30 children who die of starvation you have 74.1
So if 100% of the 74.1666 go to the lake of fire.
God gets 118 per minute.
The devil gets 74.1666 per minute.
Now if you knew the number of natural abortions that happen every minute you would probably have at least 100 a minute. That would give you 318 that do not have to find the narrow way.
The math says there will be more in Heaven whether any adults make it or not. Regardless of what caldron68 says.
Except that your math is completely wrong. Your assumption here is that the abortion rate is higher than the birth rate! Not to mention that if those 30 children out of the 104 per second are of age and have not accepted Jesus Christ as their savior (Muslim, Hindu, etc.....) they are not going to heaven either.
You're wrong and you know you're wrong. The Bible says that many will go to hell and that few will pass through the narrow gate into heaven. Period. End of story. It's in the Bible.
Cheers,
--Caldron68
Edited by caldron68, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by ICANT, posted 12-27-2008 5:10 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by ICANT, posted 12-29-2008 3:54 PM caldron68 has replied

  
caldron68
Member (Idle past 3841 days)
Posts: 79
From: USA
Joined: 08-26-2007


Message 212 of 479 (492116)
12-28-2008 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Dawn Bertot
12-27-2008 2:17 AM


Re: Re sinless
I think you are failing to the difference between a complaint and logical contradiction. You may have a ligitimate complaint from a human standpoint, but you would need to demonstrate that a logical contradiction exists given all the factors involved. You do realize that to complain about a plan from a limited perspective (finite) and contend that because he is omnipotent and omniscient, that these things should not be the way they are, puts you nearly in a contradictory position , correct? Not to mention that it is a bit ironic, for how would you know that these actions are not the most correct and valid. How could an infinite being in wisdom and knowledge, that is, that he possess all details of all possible scenerios and circumstances, possibly be inaccurate, wrong, mistaken or invalid? I see no way out of this delima, what say ye, fella?
I see your point Bertot, and you are correct, we don't have God's perspective. What we do have is his written word, and the written word supports my central statement. We have to make assumptions about the true nature of God in order to claim that there is a contradiction in my statement.
In terms of the dilemma, we have three choices:
1) God's plan will result in more misery but God will erase parts of our memory in order to make things ok.
2) God's plan does not result in more misery and we simply do not have enough information in order to see this.
3) Neither 1 or 2 is correct and it's all a myth anyway.
My intention by qouting these verse is not to critize Job. If I had been in Jobs place, I am certain I would have folded like a hallmark card, being the typical coward I am. As soon as the Lord started asking me questions, I would have said, Lord with all due respect I am not in any mood to answer questions, could you just kill me and get it over with. Even extreme distress Job understood he proper place of Gods wisdom, Idont think I would have been as understnading as Job.
Me too! God certainly caused Job a great deal of pain and suffering. Unnecessary pain and suffering, if you ask me. If I had been God in that situation, I would have told Satan to go pound sand and keep his crubby mitts off of my man Job. God knew Job to be just and righteous. There was no need to allow Satan to do what he did just so God could say "I told you so".
Further it is not my intention to imply that all the answers to these questions can be logically deduced, much of the scripture while supported by much evidence is still requires alot of faith on our part. Omniscience is one of those, leaps of faith. If you choose not to go down this path, that is your choice.
Then you know my perspective and understand why this decision (to believe) is one that is very hard to make. God punishes the scientific mind and gives a pass to the ignorant. God gives full pass to the serial killer and condemns the Einsteins of this world to hell. Ignorance is held in higher regard than rational thinking. In this system Adolf Hitler might be in Heaven and Stephen Hawking might not.
In a previous thread ICANT painted a picture of himself in Heaven. He was there viewing a long line of the people that would not be making it into heaven that day. This line included people who's only crime was to not believe what can rationally be considered a fairy tale.
Unfortunately, the line that ICANT was standing in also included those that had committed real crimes. Murder, rape, incest, genocide, you name it. As long as those people believed in Jesus Christ as their lord and savior, they got a free pass into Heaven. Does this sound fair to you? What perspective could we possible gain that would resolve this obvious bias?
Wrong. Your struggle here, is with the nature of free will. Again, you nearly puting yourself in a contradictory position in maintaining that free will is indeed free choice, then implying by the above statement that he choice is not yours. However it is. That is the definition of free will. How can the deck be stack against YOU, when you are the one making the choice, even in these posts. Again however, we must fall back on the omnipotence to define what conditions should and need to exist.
Your complaint would be make more sense if you said, there is not enough evidence, to establish this or that concerning the scriptrures and its conclusions. In this respect atleast you would have a valid argument (not that that is any way true, from my perspective), as it stands your contention is not even a valid proposition the way it is formatted or stated. In the the instance you are working from the outside in. Presently you are trying to work from within the framework of the scriptures, about moral implications, not considering the totality of the nature of God, or the logical conclusions that proceed from that position. As I have demonstrated, your complaints will not stand the test of reason, in the context of the nature of God.
Not wrong. Does Satan exist or doesn't he? Doe he influence our lives or doesn't he? Christian belief holds that he does and thus the deck is most certainly stacked against us. Why not just leave it to freewill? Isn't there enough evil in the world? Did God need to throw Satan in the mix too?
So, I will agree that the deck is not stacked against us if you will agree that Satan either does not exist or that he has no influence upon our lives.
Would your direct and indirect implication here be that it IS possible to do the right thing? Ofcourse it is. Your above statement reminds me of that old adage that says "Worrying about failure almost ensure failure".
Free will does not "more easily lead us to anything", this is an assertion. If there is even one person that can defy this statement, it would make it an assertion. Here is what the scriptrue has to say about the concept of free will:
"Let no man SAY, when he is tempted, I am tempted of God, for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he any man, but every man is tempted when he is drawn away by his own lust (mental decision) and enticed, (mental process again) then when lust is concieved it brings sin and when sin is concieved it brings death". James chapter one.
The nature of free will is unique because it is an attribute of God. Nothing in or about free will lead us to do anything. The mind and desires are what dictate what free will do or not do.
So we can eliminate freewill from the equation then. What we're left with is lust and those other things that draw us toward evil. This essentially is what I was talking about previously. Let's just call it man's nature. This nature is either influenced by outside forces (Satan) or was programmed into us by God himself. We are tempted by visual stimulation (you decide what that is). Why could we have not been pre-programmed to be repulsed by that same visual stimulation?
Your only problem is that while there is an issue in your mind, there is no contradiction in the totality of scripture. Results of free moral choice are as varied as the amount of individuals. Why do more people prefer this or that in life, who knows, it all has to do with taste and desire as the scriptures indicate. Desires are the result of a mental process of choice. One possess the exact amount of ablity to do the right thing as the wrong. To imply that free will leads us in one direction more than another is not reasonable.
I respectfully disagree. If we have the same amount of ability to do the right thing as the wrong, why does man tend toward the wrong? God knows that this is the case. The Bible supports it. There must be some reason why this is the case and if so, God could have corrected the problem in the first place.
Cheers,
--Caldron68

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-27-2008 2:17 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by ICANT, posted 12-29-2008 4:13 PM caldron68 has replied
 Message 251 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-30-2008 1:45 AM caldron68 has not replied

  
caldron68
Member (Idle past 3841 days)
Posts: 79
From: USA
Joined: 08-26-2007


Message 213 of 479 (492117)
12-28-2008 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by Peg
12-28-2008 4:26 AM


Re: Re sinless
think of it this way...life is hell for some people, death follows life therefore your already damned
God could have made it a lot more simple. There could have been acceptance into Heaven or simply a spiritual death. But that's not the system that we have. You either go to Heaven or you go to hell. No spiritual death. You either suffer eternally or you sing God's praises eternally.
No Earthly crime can keep you out of Heaven as long as you have accepted Jesus Christ as your savior. That's fair, right? Ted Bundy is in Heaven because at the very last second, before he was put to death here on Earth, he accepted Jesus and had all of his Earthly sins removed. Hitler too, I'm sure.
God gave us rules to live by. 10 commandments as a matter of fact. Thou shalt not kill. But evidently if you do it's ok as long as you believe in the Son. In fact, I could worship Satan and perform human sacrifices in his name and STILL make it in to Heaven. No punishment would be metered out. God will remove my sin, erase the parts of my mind that cause me to think the way that I do and everything will just be great. But man oh man you better not require evidence for your belief! If you do, you're going straight to hell. Don't pass go, no chance to explain yourself.
Did Gandhi go to Heaven or hell? Under the Christian belief, he went to hell. Ted Bundy is in Heaven and Gandhi went to hell? Rational or irrational, you decide.
Cheers,
--Caldron68

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Peg, posted 12-28-2008 4:26 AM Peg has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by bluescat48, posted 12-28-2008 1:23 PM caldron68 has replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 214 of 479 (492124)
12-28-2008 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by caldron68
12-28-2008 12:48 PM


Re: Re sinless
Did Gandhi go to Heaven or hell? Under the Christian belief, he went to hell. Ted Bundy is in Heaven and Gandhi went to hell? Rational or irrational, you decide.
Neither, totally asinine.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by caldron68, posted 12-28-2008 12:48 PM caldron68 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by caldron68, posted 12-28-2008 3:24 PM bluescat48 has replied

  
caldron68
Member (Idle past 3841 days)
Posts: 79
From: USA
Joined: 08-26-2007


Message 215 of 479 (492134)
12-28-2008 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by bluescat48
12-28-2008 1:23 PM


Re: Re sinless
Neither, totally asinine.
Why's that?
Cheers,
--Caldron68

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by bluescat48, posted 12-28-2008 1:23 PM bluescat48 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by bluescat48, posted 12-28-2008 3:56 PM caldron68 has replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 216 of 479 (492137)
12-28-2008 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by caldron68
12-28-2008 3:24 PM


Re: Re sinless
The whole idea that a person who is a serial killer could be saved simply by professing Jesus whereas a truly good man who doesn't accpet Jesus is condemned. The whole idea of Heaven & Hell is asinine.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by caldron68, posted 12-28-2008 3:24 PM caldron68 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by caldron68, posted 12-28-2008 4:24 PM bluescat48 has not replied
 Message 218 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-29-2008 2:54 AM bluescat48 has not replied

  
caldron68
Member (Idle past 3841 days)
Posts: 79
From: USA
Joined: 08-26-2007


Message 217 of 479 (492142)
12-28-2008 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by bluescat48
12-28-2008 3:56 PM


Re: Re sinless
The whole idea that a person who is a serial killer could be saved simply by professing Jesus whereas a truly good man who doesn't accpet Jesus is condemned. The whole idea of Heaven & Hell is asinine.
Thanks. That's the point I was trying to make.
Cheers,
--Caldron68

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by bluescat48, posted 12-28-2008 3:56 PM bluescat48 has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 218 of 479 (492174)
12-29-2008 2:54 AM
Reply to: Message 216 by bluescat48
12-28-2008 3:56 PM


Re: Re sinless
Blues writes:
The whole idea that a person who is a serial killer could be saved simply by professing Jesus whereas a truly good man who doesn't accpet Jesus is condemned. The whole idea of Heaven & Hell is asinine.
That is the whole point. There are NO truely good men to begin with. So the idea that goodness can come from a human perspective and not an eternal one is idiotic. Which mans standard of goodness will we use, the one that agrees with capital punishment or the one that doesnt? The one that agrees with abortion or the one that doesnt? The one that agrees with child pornogrophy or the one that doesnt? The one that agrees with beastialilty and the marrying of humans and animals or the one that doesnt? Think I am kidding, if you could stick around long enough, guarenteed you would see it in society.
There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Lets modify Mr. Youngs statement alittle.
There is no better love than that of the humans intercourse with his animal to show respect and impending marital bonding of the two. On what grounds will you condemn or disallow these actions?
When and only when men can demonstrate that they possess wisdom that incorperates complete knowledge, then they can pass judgement on God. Anything else is arrogance and silliness. Its like a slug trying to tell a supreme court justice the best way to proceed.
Besides this, define a serial killer. Would it be the person that daily stands in the slaughter house taking the lives of lower species? You see quickly how ridiculous it is to try and define morals or GOODNESS from a human perspective. Without even trying I dismantle your illustration and expose it for what it is, simple humanistic perspectives. Think about it.
Cauldron I will ty and get to you latest post today sometime, I am quite busy.
D Bertot
Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by bluescat48, posted 12-28-2008 3:56 PM bluescat48 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by onifre, posted 12-29-2008 3:47 PM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 224 by Straggler, posted 12-29-2008 3:59 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 219 of 479 (492220)
12-29-2008 10:43 AM


The bottom line is simply this:
God is not willing for anyone to perish, but for all to come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9, Acts 2:38). All who truly repent of their sins are saved. All who do not repent of their sins are not saved.
It's as simple and as difficult as that!
Blessings

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-29-2008 1:51 PM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 222 by onifre, posted 12-29-2008 3:49 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


(1)
Message 220 of 479 (492231)
12-29-2008 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by John 10:10
12-29-2008 10:43 AM


The bottom line is simply this:
God is not willing for anyone to perish, but for all to come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9, Acts 2:38). All who truly repent of their sins are saved. All who do not repent of their sins are not saved.
It's as simple and as difficult as that!
Regurgitating your standard Christian dogma, stock scripture and pat answers does nothing to answer the deep philosophical questions that surround your god's motives for knowingly and premeditatedly introducing sin, strife, disease, etc into the world and sending billions of people to eternal torment in a lake of fire while favoring a select few. It absolutely makes no sense, logically and philosophically.
If your god does not want anyone to perish than why did he put the temptation (of a piece of fruit) that would summarily cause the strife, torment, and damnation of billions of humans to hell within the reach of a being with no fore knowledge of what actions are acceptable (good) and which ones are not acceptable (evil), in the first place.
You say it is simple but this answer opens up a whole cannery of worms. You say all who do not repent are not saved. What about children, both young and adolescent? How about the millions of people who have never heard of Jesus Christ, both past and present? What about people before Christ? How about the mass murderers who repent in their jail cell t minutes before execution? What about an atheist ER doctor who has literally saved the lives of thousands of people on a daily basis? How about the mentally handicapped? How about the insane? Where do you draw the line?
What happens if you are a devote Christian have doubts and then killed in a car crash before can you fully "repent"? What about someone who is killed before following through with their a full repentance? What do you consider repentance? Even Christians themselves cannot even agree on the rules of salvation are. Do you have to be fully immersed/baptized? Can you pray your way to salvation? Is sprinkling ok? What if you are baptized as a baby? Do you have to say the words or can you just think them? Does anyone have to be around? How do you know if you are saved? Do you have to publically announce your conversion? What if you never get baptized are you still saved? Is once saved, always saved" biblical or can you "fall away" and later be restored? What happens if you fall away and die before you can get fully restored? Are Catholics saved? How about Mormons? Jehovah's Witnesses? Seventh Day Adventists? Scientologists? Christian Scientists? Deists? Or any other denomination except your own saved? Can an active homosexual be saved? Catch my drift?
Thus the reason there are literally tens of thousands of different Christian denominations (divisions) each of which interprets the Bible and salvation differently. It is only simple if you are a simple-minded person with no intellect.
Please revisit the posts original question and answer objectively:
If one believes in a God, then why did God send "his son" (himself??) down to earth in order to cleanse mankind of his sins.. When, in fact, he knew that man would sin again???? Does his action make any sense to anyone? How about this? Maybe if he wanted to free us of sin.. Do it, and then say, “OK, everyone come on into heaven! There is no point in making you “suffer” your way into heaven. Just come on up and give praise to me for all eternity.” After all, doesn't He want all of his "children" with him in heaven?
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by John 10:10, posted 12-29-2008 10:43 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by John 10:10, posted 12-29-2008 6:16 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 221 of 479 (492245)
12-29-2008 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Dawn Bertot
12-29-2008 2:54 AM


Re: Re sinless
So the idea that goodness can come from a human perspective and not an eternal one is idiotic.
Then neither is the interpretations of MEN that God is good or possesses any goodness to begin with. God has never stated this, this has been people of faiths assertion.
Think I am kidding, if you could stick around long enough, guarenteed you would see it in society.
Let me guess why, because gays want to get married...?
If not then explain why you conclude this from the society you currently observe.
Its like a slug trying to tell a supreme court justice the best way to proceed.
Thats only if one considers himself a slug to begin with. We do not judge God, we judge the words written on paper( or hemp ) by men about God.
You see quickly how ridiculous it is to try and define morals or GOODNESS from a human perspective. Without even trying I dismantle your illustration and expose it for what it is, simple humanistic perspectives. Think about it.
This is however the same human perspective that you use to establish Gods goodness to begin with. So when Christians say God is good, are they full of shit too...?

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-29-2008 2:54 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by ICANT, posted 12-29-2008 4:22 PM onifre has replied
 Message 252 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-30-2008 2:25 AM onifre has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 222 of 479 (492246)
12-29-2008 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by John 10:10
12-29-2008 10:43 AM


God is not willing for anyone to perish
Then why does He let our cells degenerate, naturally, in all species...?

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by John 10:10, posted 12-29-2008 10:43 AM John 10:10 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by ICANT, posted 12-29-2008 4:34 PM onifre has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 223 of 479 (492247)
12-29-2008 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by caldron68
12-28-2008 10:21 AM


Re: Perfect
Hi caldron68,
caldron68 writes:
In short, in order for your stay in heaven to not be miserable, God will only have to erase some of your memory.
That is correct, all the bad memories. In other words the knowledge of evil.
caldron68 writes:
I thought we were perfect.
Yes the natural man does tend to think that.
Eccleasiates 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.
Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
We are far from perfect in God's view.
The first man formed in Geneses 2:7 was perfect.
caldron68 writes:
This is central to the point that I have made. God will have to modify man in order for man to fulfill his purpose.
Yes man in his natural state can not fulfill God's purpose.
God begins a work when man receives Christ as personal savior, by making the spirit perfect.
God provides a perfect body to house the spirit and mind at the resurrection.
God provides man with a perfect mind when He removes the knowledge of evil.
caldron68 writes:
I guess it's OK to refute the Bible when it suits your needs, right ICANT? Can you please quote the scripture that says that there will be more people in Heaven than there will be in hell? I have already shown you the scripture that says that few will find their way to heaven.
It would help a lot if you knew what you were talking about.
Nowhere is the word heaven mentioned in Matthew 7:14.
Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Neither is hell mentioned in Matthew 7:13.
Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Lets do a little Bible study.
Who is doing the speaking in these verses? Jesus.
Matthew 5:1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
Who is He speaking to? His disciples.
What is He speaking to His disciples about?
If you read chapters 5, 6, and 7 you find Jesus is teaching His disciples about how they are to conduct themselves in the world.
How they are to deal with their brothers and others. Also the reason they should do certain things.
When He gets to 7:14 He is still speaking to His disciples. He is not speaking to lost, unsaved people. He is speaking to born again scripturally baptized believers in Him.
He even warns the disciples of false prophets in the very next verse.
7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Let me provide the definition of the Greek Word life that is used in verse 14.
= the absolute fulness of life.
It would need in front of it to convey the meaning of eternal, everlasting (never ending) life.
I would say Paul and Peter found that fulness of life and others that gave their lives for the cause of Christ.
I would say today there are very, very few that find the narrow way.
caldron68 writes:
Except that your math is completely wrong. Your assumption here is that the abortion rate is higher than the birth rate! Not to mention that if those 30 children out of the 104 per second are of age and have not accepted Jesus Christ as their savior (Muslim, Hindu, etc.....) they are not going to heaven either.
It makes no difference who their parents are or what their parents believe.
The 30 I used that starve to death are 6 and under so they would not have reached the point where they knew good and evil as the first man in the garden did when he ate the fruit.
So any way you try to slice the numbers they say that:
God gets 104 every minute.
The devil could get a max of 74.666 per minute.
The amount of births has nothing to do with the numbers.
The death rate is 100%. Everybody dies. Regardless of number born they will eventually die.
caldron68 writes:
The Bible says that many will go to hell and that few will pass through the narrow gate into heaven.
Please produce a verse of scripture in the Bible that makes this statement.
or
Retract it.
I would like to thank you for pressing your issue and making me go back and study what the Bible actually says. We humans do get in a rut now and then. So thanks.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by caldron68, posted 12-28-2008 10:21 AM caldron68 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by caldron68, posted 12-29-2008 10:28 PM ICANT has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 224 of 479 (492248)
12-29-2008 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Dawn Bertot
12-29-2008 2:54 AM


Re: Re sinless
So the idea that goodness can come from a human perspective and not an eternal one is idiotic.
The idea that there even is an "eternal perspective" is a fairly baseless assumption on your part.
Which mans standard of goodness will we use, the one that agrees with capital punishment or the one that doesnt? The one that agrees with abortion or the one that doesnt? The one that agrees with child pornogrophy or the one that doesnt? The one that agrees with beastialilty and the marrying of humans and animals or the one that doesnt? Think I am kidding, if you could stick around long enough, guarenteed you would see it in society
1) This is your opinion/assumption and is ultimately a baseless assertion.
2) Even if you were to be correct regarding the consequences the fact that you dislike the assumed consequences of man-made morality is neither here nor there with regard the actual existence of any absolutist alternative.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-29-2008 2:54 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 225 of 479 (492250)
12-29-2008 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by caldron68
12-28-2008 12:26 PM


Re sinless
Hi caldron68,
caldron68 writes:
In a previous thread ICANT painted a picture of himself in Heaven. He was there viewing a long line of the people that would not be making it into heaven that day.
Where did I say anything about being in Heaven?
caldron68 writes:
Unfortunately, the line that ICANT was standing in also included those that had committed real crimes. Murder, rape, incest, genocide, you name it. As long as those people believed in Jesus Christ as their lord and savior, they got a free pass into Heaven. Does this sound fair to you? What perspective could we possible gain that would resolve this obvious bias?
Where did I say anything about standing in a line?
If I remember correctly I said I saw myself standing at the Great White Throne judgment and would see those of my friends, loved ones, co-workers, and people I had met day by day and never told them about Jesus. That I would see them cast into the lake of fire and this would make me very miserable.
Now if this is not correct please reference the message you are pulling your information from.
caldron68 writes:
Why not just leave it to freewill?
He did leave it entirely up to the individual.
You choose to believe whatever you desire.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by caldron68, posted 12-28-2008 12:26 PM caldron68 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by Straggler, posted 12-29-2008 4:18 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 250 by caldron68, posted 12-29-2008 10:39 PM ICANT has replied

  
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