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Author Topic:   The irresolvability of the creation/evolution debate
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 76 of 98 (492138)
12-28-2008 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by thief
12-28-2008 2:25 PM


Re: Wow! I Think You're on [to] Something
Thief writes:
you don't catch on well
Thief,
It sounds like you just like the sound of your own voice. If you want to dabble in pseudoscientific gobbly gook go to an astrology forum.
Otherwise put up or shut up. Stop with the idiotic giberish and provide substantiated evidence for whatever position your advocating.
If college educated people can't understand a word you are saying, it means your argument (whatever it is) is not logically sound. Go back and try again. People are not going to waste their precious time trying to decipher your idiotic ramblings. We have better things to do with our time.
Catch that!

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by thief, posted 12-28-2008 2:25 PM thief has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by thief, posted 12-28-2008 4:43 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 77 of 98 (492140)
12-28-2008 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by lyx2no
12-28-2008 3:48 PM


Re: Careful
It's as much as I could do not to take my EE-3 carbine to him/her.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by lyx2no, posted 12-28-2008 3:48 PM lyx2no has not replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2697 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 78 of 98 (492143)
12-28-2008 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by thief
12-28-2008 3:06 PM


Re: Greetings to you one and all Creation vs Evolution
Hi, Thief. Welcome to EvC, I guess.
thief writes:
I'm seeking a bit more feed back
If you’re interested in the thoughts of a young man with little real experience in either science or religion, let me provide you with my assessment as to why you’re not getting any feedback.
In a logical debate, it’s customary to present a full argument at the beginning. That way, all parties are able to participate in a discussion and frame their arguments in a productive manner.
In a way, you have done so. In Message 52, you claimed that you could harmonize Genesis and the Theory of Evolution.
Since that point, however, you have kind of rambled back and forth about what Moses would think about a round earth, and how people are not warmly welcoming you here. And, yet, you are asking for feedback.
Feedback on what? Moses demanding proof of a round earth? Or Genesis and the ToE? You've so far presented a handful of disjunct thoughts. I should think the insults to your sanity or clarity of thought would be the best feedback that could be offered given the circumstances.
Can you deliver on your original promise to harmonize Genesis and Evolution, or do you intend to continue jerking people around for another couple hundred posts before finally tying the ramblings back to the original claim?
The way you’re going, you come off as condescending. Everybody else has arguments that they would like the chance to present, as well, but your holding off on the presentation of your basic thesis in favor of slowly dragging your opponents through a ritualized sequence of questions that you’ve carefully crafted to reach the desired end that you’re not sharing with us, is robbing everybody else of their chance to actually participate in the discussion.
If all you want is for somebody to answer your question or provide the feedback you're predicting so that you can move on, why not just ask and answer them yourself, so we can read the whole sequence to see what the point of it is, and not waste the limited number of posts we get per thread waiting until our turn to present a rebuttal?

-Bluejay
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by thief, posted 12-28-2008 3:06 PM thief has not replied

  
thief
Junior Member (Idle past 5532 days)
Posts: 30
Joined: 12-28-2008


Message 79 of 98 (492144)
12-28-2008 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by DevilsAdvocate
12-28-2008 4:01 PM


Re: Wow! I Think You're on [to] Something
Did you take the time?
Genesis is what most creationists rely on to support their perspective
Go back and read it again. I use this reference to show this to be so.
Chapter Two does not defeat science
Chapter one does not take away evolution
The question is not about me
The question is...are you scientific..do you recognize an experiment when you see one?
Or do you prefer your Scripture 'as is' ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-28-2008 4:01 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 80 of 98 (492145)
12-28-2008 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by thief
12-28-2008 2:25 PM


Be more careful in posting thief
This is a warning that you will have to:
1) stay on topic
2) be clear in your posts
3) do not post nonsense
If you continue with your current posting pattern you will start to receive suspensions of gradually growing duration.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by thief, posted 12-28-2008 2:25 PM thief has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by thief, posted 12-28-2008 5:00 PM AdminNosy has not replied

  
thief
Junior Member (Idle past 5532 days)
Posts: 30
Joined: 12-28-2008


Message 81 of 98 (492149)
12-28-2008 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by AdminNosy
12-28-2008 4:43 PM


Re: Be more careful in posting thief
Thank you
But to assume I ramble is incorrect
That this particular viewpoint eludes the other participates doesn't place me at fault
Perhaps a dialog...one on one would be better?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Coyote, posted 12-28-2008 5:04 PM thief has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 82 of 98 (492150)
12-28-2008 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by thief
12-28-2008 5:00 PM


Re: Be more careful in posting thief
Thank you
But to assume I ramble is incorrect
That this particular viewpoint eludes the other participates doesn't place me at fault
Perhaps a dialog...one on one would be better?
We need to figure out what you are saying. So far you are posting what appears to be a low grade of unassociated pseudo-mystical gibberish.
Perhaps you could be more clear in your posts? That way your "particular viewpoint" might not elude us so badly.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by thief, posted 12-28-2008 5:00 PM thief has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 83 of 98 (492153)
12-28-2008 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by thief
12-28-2008 10:23 AM


Give the poor lad a chance
Let's try something really different
I will place you between myself and Moses
I bid you to say to him
Hey old man! you do not understand what hangs above your head...
nor do you understand what lays beneath your feet.
Take a hike! to the east..if you live long enough you will cross a huge territory (we now call Asia). When you reach the far side..build an ark..with sails.. cross the ocean (we now call Pacific)...abandon the ark and cross the land (we now call America)..build another ark, with sails..cross the ocean (we now call Atlantic)...if you stray not far off course (South America or Africa) you will soon be home again.
At this point Moses would look you in the eye..and not with approval
Say to him then...the stars above are not candles held steadfast by the angels. They are instead huge balls of flaming hot gas, far larger than the earth, and so distant the light of such things requires thousands of years to be seen by us.
At this point Moses would likely pick up a rock.
So too his many followers.
And if you fail to turn quickly...run...never to be seen again
you could end up under a pile of rock, dying from suffocation.
But who is greater ...you or Moses?
You know what hangs above your head.
You know the earth is round
For lack of proof..Moses would have you dead for such words
But you know better...don't you?
Unless Moses should change his mind you will not have peace with him.
How scientific are you?
Finally, poetic debating!
Sorry guys but I'm loving this. Please digress good sir and continue your point.
What happens next...?
Do I tell Moses about blackholes yet..?
Would that cause me to suffer more punishment because I don't have proof of them yet...?
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by thief, posted 12-28-2008 10:23 AM thief has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by thief, posted 12-28-2008 10:07 PM onifre has not replied

  
thief
Junior Member (Idle past 5532 days)
Posts: 30
Joined: 12-28-2008


Message 84 of 98 (492157)
12-28-2008 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by onifre
12-28-2008 7:18 PM


Re: Give the poor lad a chance
I thank you for your most gracious reprieve.
I realize you offer no agreement, and you offer no support
However, your allowance to me is most kind
Apparently, the rest of this small gathering does not share your etiquette, nor do they possess well developed imaginations.
Imagination is the problem solving portion of the mind
Without such ability, possible solutions are elusive, and there maybe no problem that can be resolved
I must have been too brief in previous text.
I have already displayed the narrative of Genesis Chapter One to be something less than it should be.
Chapter Two fairs no better. An argument favoring creationism cannot be supported out of Genesis. On the contrary, the events of Chapter Two are not events of magic or myth. They are events of manipulation
As for Adam as a myth...Nay!
Adam is the first son of God. Scripture says so, and on this point I offer no contest. It is simply that Adam was first to encounter a being greater than himself. To say 'nay' to this gives rise to another discussion...does God speak at all! He had to start somewhere.
As for Eve...she is the one not having a navel!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by onifre, posted 12-28-2008 7:18 PM onifre has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-28-2008 10:43 PM thief has replied
 Message 90 by Blue Jay, posted 12-29-2008 12:22 AM thief has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 85 of 98 (492160)
12-28-2008 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by thief
12-28-2008 10:07 PM


Re: Give the poor lad a chance
Thief writes:
Apparently, the rest of this small gathering does not share your etiquette, nor do they possess well developed imaginations.
Alas, poor Thief,
Who rambles on and on..
With nothing substantial to say,
Who carries not a lucid thought,
a bumbling moron.
Further he writes with no point in site,
With no poetic rhythm to display,
Can you not give us some respite,
Please refrain from your illogical melee.
Your Adam myths are ludicrous,
Nay, nor your creation fables hold water,
Why continue on with such impetuousness,
Your logic is ill founded.
**Sorry, I could not resist**
Just because we choose not to speak in riddles and rhymes all the time does not mean we do not have imaginations. It just means that speaking clearly and concisely is more productive to a logical discussion in a science forum.
In other words, stop being a condescending jerk. Or as Shrek would say "Alright, you're going the right way for a smart bottom..."
BTW, don't take this to personally. Everything I say is somewhat tongue and cheek. I do however despise hypocritical, self-righteous and condescending attitudes and so occassionally attempt to take some people down a few notches to remove the "I am more intelligent than you" attitude and allow us to discuss on a much more honest and balanced playing field so to speak.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by thief, posted 12-28-2008 10:07 PM thief has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by thief, posted 12-28-2008 10:57 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
thief
Junior Member (Idle past 5532 days)
Posts: 30
Joined: 12-28-2008


Message 86 of 98 (492161)
12-28-2008 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by DevilsAdvocate
12-28-2008 10:43 PM


Re: Give the poor lad a chance
Some Devil's advocate you are.
I've been picking on the Genesis narrative, and Moses
You were never the target!
Previous dialog was offer to reduce the creationist crutch of Scripture
Future dialog will be aimed at the scientist.
Which one are you?
Declare yourself!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-28-2008 10:43 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Coyote, posted 12-28-2008 11:04 PM thief has replied
 Message 88 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-28-2008 11:05 PM thief has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 87 of 98 (492162)
12-28-2008 11:04 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by thief
12-28-2008 10:57 PM


Re: Give the poor lad a chance
Previous dialog was offer to reduce the creationist crutch of Scripture
Future dialog will be aimed at the scientist.
Which one are you?
Declare yourself!
1) It reduced me to laughter.
2) I'm a scientist, bring it on--but do it elsewhere, as
3) This is entirely off topic for this thread. You should start a new thread so all of your nonsense could be kept in one convenient place.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by thief, posted 12-28-2008 10:57 PM thief has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by thief, posted 12-28-2008 11:22 PM Coyote has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 88 of 98 (492163)
12-28-2008 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by thief
12-28-2008 10:57 PM


Re: Give the poor lad a chance
Some Devil's advocate you are.
I've been picking on the Genesis narrative, and Moses
You were never the target!
Previous dialog was offer to reduce the creationist crutch of Scripture
Future dialog will be aimed at the scientist.
Which one are you?
Declare yourself!
Declare myself?
What are you a prophet?
It is difficult to decipher from your cryptic posts exactly what you are trying to do. I don't care if you are a Christian or an atheist or somewhere in between. What I do care about is, that this is a debate and discussion board and if you cannot adequately and coherently explain your point of view than you are veering this discussion (and other threads from what I have seen) off topic. That is all. Speeking cryptically does nothing to bolster your point of view. It just adds to the confusion.
BTW, welcome to EvC.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by thief, posted 12-28-2008 10:57 PM thief has not replied

  
thief
Junior Member (Idle past 5532 days)
Posts: 30
Joined: 12-28-2008


Message 89 of 98 (492166)
12-28-2008 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Coyote
12-28-2008 11:04 PM


Re: Give the poor lad a chance
So far I see plenty of complaint and no serious rebuttal
No creationist stepped up to say 'yeah or nay'
And now I hear one scientist laughing as if his position is secure
For evolution...what critique do you consider as proof?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Coyote, posted 12-28-2008 11:04 PM Coyote has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Admin, posted 12-29-2008 6:11 AM thief has replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2697 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 90 of 98 (492168)
12-29-2008 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by thief
12-28-2008 10:07 PM


Re: Give the poor lad a chance
Hi, Thief.
Since you disapprove of our already-existing DevilsAdvocate, let me try my hand at playing the part.
thief writes:
An argument favoring creationism cannot be supported out of Genesis.
I don't believe that you've actually shown this. Yes, you've certainly said it.
So far, the only thing you've proven (with help from a volunteer from the audience) was that the order of creation does not match with the order put forth by science.
But, this in no way says you can't make an argument favoring creationism from Genesis. If Genesis is all you're using, you certainly would make an argument favoring creationism.
-----
thief writes:
Imagination is the problem solving portion of the mind
In many cases, imagination is also the problem-causing portion of the mind.

-Bluejay
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by thief, posted 12-28-2008 10:07 PM thief has not replied

  
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