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Author Topic:   Why did God forgive our sins?
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 226 of 479 (492251)
12-29-2008 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by ICANT
12-29-2008 4:13 PM


Re: Re sinless
If I remember correctly I said I saw myself standing at the Great White Throne judgment and would see those of my friends, loved ones, co-workers, and people I had met day by day and never told them about Jesus. That I would see them cast into the lake of fire and this would make me very miserable.
Is misery possible in heaven.......?
Some might think that watching passively and powerlessly as ones loved ones are consigned to eternal damnation in a lake of fire is in itself a form of hell.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by ICANT, posted 12-29-2008 4:13 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by ICANT, posted 12-29-2008 4:57 PM Straggler has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 227 of 479 (492252)
12-29-2008 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by onifre
12-29-2008 3:47 PM


Re sinless
Hi oni,
onifre writes:
Then neither is the interpretations of MEN that God is good or possesses any goodness to begin with. God has never stated this, this has been people of faiths assertion.
Luke 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
Well Jesus said God was good. I will accept His word over yours.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by onifre, posted 12-29-2008 3:47 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Straggler, posted 12-29-2008 4:28 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 230 by onifre, posted 12-29-2008 4:41 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 228 of 479 (492253)
12-29-2008 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by ICANT
12-29-2008 4:22 PM


Re: Re sinless
onifre writes:
Then neither is the interpretations of MEN that God is good or possesses any goodness to begin with. God has never stated this, this has been people of faiths assertion.
Luke 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
Well Jesus said God was good. I will accept His word over yours.
At absolute best this shows that Luke said that Jesus said that God was good.
More realistically this shows that 'someone' has written that Luke said that Jesus said that God was good.
So it seems that Onfire might have had a point no?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by ICANT, posted 12-29-2008 4:22 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 229 of 479 (492254)
12-29-2008 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by onifre
12-29-2008 3:49 PM


Re degenerate
Hi oni,
onifre writes:
Then why does He let our cells degenerate, naturally, in all species...?
It seems there is a thing called sin that came into the world when the first man disobeyed God's direct command. By that sin death entered into the world. Every living plant, animal, fish, fowl and man must die.
But man was made in the image of God. He has a flesh body that must die because of sin but he has a spirit and mind that will never die.
The spirit and mind will receive an everlasting body at the resurrection.
That body, mind and spirit will spend eternity somewhere.
There is only two places that can be.
In heaven with God or in the lake of fire with the devil.
It is man's choice.
You can choose to go to heaven or you can refuse to choose to go to heaven.
That is the only choice you have.
God chose to forgive you your sins if you would trust in His only begoten Son.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by onifre, posted 12-29-2008 3:49 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by onifre, posted 12-29-2008 4:56 PM ICANT has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 230 of 479 (492256)
12-29-2008 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by ICANT
12-29-2008 4:22 PM


Re: Re sinless
Long time not talk ICANT. Hope the holidays have been "good" to you.
Well Jesus said God was good. I will accept His word over yours.
Lets not patronize each other ICANT. I know very well what is written within the contents of the Christian Bible. That was not my point.
However, on to your point, you still have to place trust that the men who wrote those words did not lie to begin with, that is not faith in Jesus, that is faith in man.
If you can provide proper verification about the writings of the Bible and attribute those words directly to Jesus, outside of faith, then perhaps you would have a good point. As I understand it though, Jesus left not a single document written by him directly.

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by ICANT, posted 12-29-2008 4:22 PM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-30-2008 2:44 AM onifre has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 231 of 479 (492257)
12-29-2008 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by ICANT
12-29-2008 4:34 PM


Re: Re degenerate
t seems there is a thing called sin that came into the world when the first man disobeyed God's direct command.
I've always loved this angle creationist take.
What then came first, the degeneration of living cells, or sin...?
Based off of fossil records, things perished long before the homo genus ever appeared, right?
Every living plant, animal, fish, fowl and man must die.
Plants and animals were dying LONG before man enters the picture ICANT.
In heaven with God or in the lake of fire with the devil.
Not to nit pick but, where does the devil get the chemical compounds for fire...?
Does the devil have an endless supply of oxygen in the spiritual world...?
God chose to forgive you your sins if you would trust in His only begoten Son.
I have yet to meet His son, I've only been told about His son by people, who I don't trust, and in books written by men, who I don't know or trust. Seems like God has placed more faith in mans ability to write and spread the word than man has placed in God to begin with.
Doesn't God know He is trusting a species born into sin and prone to lying...?
Perhaps a better representative is needed...maybe a trusting unicorn...? (sorry I'm a comic )

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by ICANT, posted 12-29-2008 4:34 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by ICANT, posted 12-29-2008 5:52 PM onifre has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 232 of 479 (492258)
12-29-2008 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by Straggler
12-29-2008 4:18 PM


Re sinless
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
Is misery possible in heaven.......?
That is a loaded question.
My first instinct was to say no.
But upon further review I wonder if there could not be pain there now. I do not think there will be any there when we have the new heaven and earth spoken of in Revelation.
But I am sure I pain Jesus every time I disobey him just like my sons even though they are 49 and 51 pain me today when they do things contrary to what I taught them to do.
Straggler writes:
Some might think that watching passively and powerlessly as ones loved ones are consigned to eternal damnation in a lake of fire is in itself a form of hell.
At the Great White Throne Judgment they will point a finger at me and ask me Why I did not be a better example? Why I did not tell them one more time about Jesus? Some will even say you met me day by day and knew I was astray but you never mentioned Him to me.
I can only imagine what that will be like. But at that time I will have known for at least 1000 years those of my loved ones and friends that would be cast into the lake of fire.
If I don't see them participating in the 1000 year reign of Christ I will know their destiny.
That alone should motivate so called christians to become Christ Like and let their life so shine as to cause others to accept Christ as their personal savior.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Straggler, posted 12-29-2008 4:18 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by Straggler, posted 12-29-2008 5:07 PM ICANT has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 233 of 479 (492259)
12-29-2008 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by ICANT
12-29-2008 4:57 PM


Re: Re sinless
ICANT your version of "heaven" sounds awful. An endless bout of misery and guilt and emotional pain........

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by ICANT, posted 12-29-2008 4:57 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by onifre, posted 12-29-2008 5:17 PM Straggler has not replied
 Message 236 by ICANT, posted 12-29-2008 6:06 PM Straggler has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 234 of 479 (492261)
12-29-2008 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by Straggler
12-29-2008 5:07 PM


Re: Re sinless
An endless bout of misery and guilt and emotional pain........
For ALL of eternity.
As C. Hitchens puts it, At least in North Korea you can escape the horrors with death, heaven has no escape.

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Straggler, posted 12-29-2008 5:07 PM Straggler has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 235 of 479 (492265)
12-29-2008 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by onifre
12-29-2008 4:56 PM


Re degenerate
Hi oni,
onifre writes:
Based off of fossil records, things perished long before the homo genus ever appeared, right?
According to our current knowledge that would be a correct assumption.
But answer me this question.
What fossils would you expect to find on the earth that may have been placed there a few trillion years ago?
I know you say the earth is only a few billion years old.
Correction, the earth has always existed in some form.
Genesis 1:1 says: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Just when was the beginning? A few 1000 years ago? A few billion years ago? A few trillion years ago? A number so big you could not write it in your lifetime.
Just when was the beginning?
When science comes up with the answer to what was prior to T=0 we may begin to find some answers to when the beginning was.
onifre writes:
Plants and animals were dying LONG before man enters the picture ICANT.
Maybe according to your Bible but not mine.
According to my Bible man was here the day the universe and earth was created.
Man was the first creation on earth.
onifre writes:
Not to nit pick but, where does the devil get the chemical compounds for fire...?
Does the devil have an endless supply of oxygen in the spiritual world...?
You must be refering to the fellow that is depicted on a lye can.
The guy with a long tail red suit and a pitchfork in his hand.
Well he is going to be inside of the lake of fire therefore he will not be able to stoke the fire.
But yes God has an endless supply of whatever is needed.
He is everything that ever was, is or will be.
onifre writes:
I have yet to meet His son, I've only been told about His son by people, who I don't trust, and in books written by men, who I don't know or trust. Seems like God has placed more faith in mans ability to write and spread the word than man has placed in God to begin with.
You ever thought God may have had a little part in what was written?
Anyway I am sorry you feel as you do. But don't blame God for your feelings.
onifre writes:
Doesn't God know He is trusting a species born into sin and prone to lying...?
What makes you think God trusts anybody especially when He know what we did until our dying day?
onifre writes:
Perhaps a better representative is needed...maybe a trusting unicorn...? (sorry I'm a comic )
I'm glad you think so.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by onifre, posted 12-29-2008 4:56 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by onifre, posted 12-29-2008 6:29 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 236 of 479 (492266)
12-29-2008 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by Straggler
12-29-2008 5:07 PM


Re sinless
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
ICANT your version of "heaven" sounds awful. An endless bout of misery and guilt and emotional pain........
Lets see now.
I have a perfect spirit now.
I will receive a perfect body at the resurrection.
After the Great White Throne Judgment God will wipe away all tears and the knowledge of evil will be removed.
Now if I don't remember anything evil, How can I be in an endless bout of misery and guilt and emotional pain?
Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
No Death,
No Pain,
No Sorrow, and
No Crying,
Because they have all passed away.
Sounds like Heaven to me.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Straggler, posted 12-29-2008 5:07 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by Straggler, posted 12-29-2008 6:29 PM ICANT has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 237 of 479 (492267)
12-29-2008 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by DevilsAdvocate
12-29-2008 1:51 PM


In this forum section, people of faith get to explain to those who have no faith who the God who is is, what His message of salvation is, and the God who is saves those He is drawing to Himself.
The whosoever wills repent and choose to be saved by the God who saves, and the whosoever wonts choose not to repent, rejecting God's salvation.
It's as simple and as difficult as that.
Blessings

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-29-2008 1:51 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-29-2008 6:40 PM John 10:10 has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 238 of 479 (492272)
12-29-2008 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by ICANT
12-29-2008 6:06 PM


Re: Re sinless
And when your mind turns to those who suffer eternal torment in a lake of fire while you large it up in your 'perfect body'?
Not a single moment of remorse? Emotional pain? Guilt? Misery? As per your previous post.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by ICANT, posted 12-29-2008 6:06 PM ICANT has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 239 of 479 (492273)
12-29-2008 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by ICANT
12-29-2008 5:52 PM


Re: Re degenerate
Hi ICANT,
I know you say the earth is only a few billion years old.
This is what geologist say, I am not one but I can read their information, as you can. If you'd like to make gigantic extrapolations about trillion year old Earths then have fun with that, just don't expect many to join you.
However, this is off topic so I'll give you the last word if you wish to reply back to what I wrote.
According to my Bible man was here the day the universe and earth was created.
Man was the first creation on earth.
I read a book once that said a cow jumped over the moon. I believed them until I read another book that explained the distance of the moon to the earth; theres no way that cow jumped over the moon. I was sad, but I got over it.
Fossil records contradict your assertion.
Well he is going to be inside of the lake of fire therefore he will not be able to stoke the fire.
But yes God has an endless supply of whatever is needed.
So again, the spiritual world, that we can't see or point to, has oxygen...? Yet it is not in any physical form...?
I'm confused.
You ever thought God may have had a little part in what was written?
Who told you that, some person...?
And you just trust them like that...?
Anyway I am sorry you feel as you do. But don't blame God for your feelings.
Don't worry, He and I see eye to eye on this matter.
What makes you think God trusts anybody especially when He know what we did until our dying day?
He had to trust man. He gave man His word to spread, according to Christians. Why not just do it Himself...? Oh wait thats right, a magician never reveals his trick.
I'm glad you think so.
Ouch...
Me, and the folks at the Just for Laughs Comedy Festival in Montreal. Tomorrow is the showcase for the finals, pray for me.
http://www.symfonee.com/Improv/ftl/comedians/Bio.aspx?Uid...
Edited by onifre, : added greeting

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by ICANT, posted 12-29-2008 5:52 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by ICANT, posted 12-29-2008 7:47 PM onifre has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 240 of 479 (492274)
12-29-2008 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by John 10:10
12-29-2008 6:16 PM


In this forum section, people of faith get to explain to those who have no faith who the God who is is, what His message of salvation is, and the God who is saves those He is drawing to Himself.
Been there, done that, have the t-shirt. Why do religious fanatics on this forum assume that anyone here who does not agree with them have had no religious experiences and have never read the Bible? I would venture to guess many on here including myself know exactly what your "message of salvation" is. We just see no evidence to back it up. BTW, this is not a proselytization "God Tube" forum it is a science/philosophy forum.
The whosoever wills repent and choose to be saved by the God who saves, and the whosoever wonts choose not to repent, rejecting God's salvation.
Yes, yes. Tell us something we don't know. As my mother would say "If you can't say anything substantial, don't say anything at all." Or my father's favorite quote plagerized from old Abe speaks volumes: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."
It's as simple and as difficult as that.
It seems you are a rather simple minded person.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by John 10:10, posted 12-29-2008 6:16 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by AdminNosy, posted 12-29-2008 7:06 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied
 Message 243 by John 10:10, posted 12-29-2008 7:31 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
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