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Author Topic:   Simultaneous appearance of written language and common man
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 59 of 86 (492824)
01-03-2009 3:47 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Jon
01-03-2009 2:25 AM


Re: The Real Question
Jon writes:
You should be trying to show how her definition is not acceptable, not how her timetables are wrong.
So, let's start off anew on a different foot. We will ask Peg to show why writing is a necessary piece of the definition of "humanness". We will point to the fact that humans exist the world over who only speak languages with no written forms. We will show how ancient cultures, such as the Inca, were very functional and operable human societies sans writing. Once these steps have been walked through, we can move to the timetables.
thanks Jon, this is precisely why i'm here... to challenge my own beliefs and hopefully learn something in the process
this gives me exactly what i need to study
cheers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Jon, posted 01-03-2009 2:25 AM Jon has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Brian, posted 01-03-2009 6:58 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 71 of 86 (492895)
01-04-2009 3:23 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Jon
01-03-2009 2:21 PM


Re: The Real Question
Jon writes:
You say they are still human if they can learn to read and write [their language]. So, what if they cannot learn to read and write their language because their language has no writing system? Does this mean they are not human because of their inability to learn to read and write their language?
Even if a nation of humans had no language themselves...it does not mean that they could not learn someone else's language. Not everyone can run a marathon either, but that doesnt mean its impossible for them to train for it. Language is an inbuilt ability in our brains making us unique to all other animals.
Here is an interesting article about 'our' uniqueness
http://www.edge.org/...re/gazzaniga08/gazzaniga08_index.html
an interesting point is the first paragraph about a certain gene that sets us apart, take not of ...
article writes:
'They calculated that one genetic variant of microcephalin arose approximately 37,000 years ago, which coincides with the emergence of culturally modern humans, and it increased in frequency too rapidly to be compatible with random genetic drift or population migration. This suggests that it underwent positive selection.[xxi] An ASPM variant arose about 5800 years ago, coincident with the spread of agriculture, cities and the first record of written language.
to me, this is saying that the humans of around 5,800 years ago were the first to use agriculture, build cities and write. This is what i said pages ago but it seems most of you disagree. If its saying something other then that, could someone spell it out to me in laymans terms.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Jon, posted 01-03-2009 2:21 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Otto Tellick, posted 01-04-2009 5:21 AM Peg has replied
 Message 75 by bluegenes, posted 01-04-2009 7:38 AM Peg has replied
 Message 80 by Jon, posted 01-04-2009 6:38 PM Peg has not replied
 Message 84 by Dr Jack, posted 01-05-2009 7:28 AM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 72 of 86 (492896)
01-04-2009 4:40 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Brian
01-03-2009 6:58 AM


Re: The Real Question
Brian writes:
If I said to you that there is zero evidence for the Exodus, and zero evidence for King Solomon and his Temple, would you be able to show me that I am incorrect?
archeologically speaking, there is evidence that what moses wrote about Egypt was accurate. Archeological evidence exists which shows that it was a custom of the Egyptians to allow foreigners to live in egypt in areas separate to egyptions. Bricks have been found made of straw, as moses indicates. Its not surprising that the Egyptions didnt make a written record of the event...would you exptect them to record such a defeat as 'our slaves turned on us and killed most of our army'? I cant imagine any nation would do so.
But perhaps you can tell me something...have you ever read 'The Admonitions of an Egyptian Sage from a Hieratic Papyrus in Leiden, by
A H Gardiner ???
i read on a jewish website that this is based on a papyrus dating from the end of the Old Kingdom that seems to be an eyewitness account of the events preceding the dissolution of the Old Kingdom. The name of the writer on the Paprys is said to be an Egyptian named Ipuwer, and he wrote a testimony to events such as:
* Plague is throughout the land. Blood is everywhere.
* The river is blood.
* That is our water! That is our happiness! What shall we do in respect thereof? All is ruin!
* Trees are destroyed.
* No fruit or herbs are found...
* Forsooth, gates, columns and walls are consumed by fire.
* Forsooth, grain has perished on every side.
* The land is not light [dark].

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Brian, posted 01-03-2009 6:58 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by PaulK, posted 01-04-2009 5:20 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 76 by Brian, posted 01-04-2009 9:31 AM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 78 of 86 (492947)
01-04-2009 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Otto Tellick
01-04-2009 5:21 AM


Re: The Real Question
Brian writes:
That was a very interesting link (to the article by Michael Gazzaniga) -- thank you. What you are saying now makes more sense. Maybe the earlier disputes were due to misunderstandings that were caused by a poor choice of words or phrasing.
yes, i apologise for not being up to date with the scientific terminology... when i said 'modern humans' i was talking about the humans as we are today
And his article shows that due to the development of a certain gene, the humans we are today came into being. And seeing it all happened in the last 5,800 yrs its still very plausible that we were a unique creation

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Otto Tellick, posted 01-04-2009 5:21 AM Otto Tellick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Otto Tellick, posted 01-04-2009 7:18 PM Peg has not replied
 Message 83 by Jon, posted 01-04-2009 11:19 PM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 79 of 86 (492948)
01-04-2009 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by bluegenes
01-04-2009 7:38 AM


Re: Brain genes and variations!
hi bluegenes,
bluegenes writes:
my main point is that the arrival and spread of the gene is too late for it to be regarded as an important factor in the development of the technologies you refer to. Remember, when it starts, only one person has it, and it takes many generations for it to spread over a significant proportion of the population and to move from region to region. So it's not a writing gene, because people in very different areas were writing before it could have arrived in all of those areas (and even then, only a minority would have the characteristic).
the article i posted didnt draw this conclusion at all, in fact it said the opposite
he said the gene and the agriculture and writing etc appeared together.
Hence why i find it so very difficult to learn about evolutionary science...its like religion...it varies from person to person lol

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by bluegenes, posted 01-04-2009 7:38 AM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by bluegenes, posted 01-04-2009 7:18 PM Peg has not replied

  
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