Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   if other Life is Discovered wouldn't this Pose a problem?
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 16 of 107 (48981)
08-06-2003 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Dr Cresswell
08-06-2003 11:43 AM


Re: I answer not as a creationist
Dr Cresswell responds to me:
quote:
I hold a view of God as creator and sustainer of the universe. I believe that all things are the direct action of God.
Well, then, here's a question:
Is there anything that happens on its own or is god required for everything?
That is, if I take a handful of coins and toss them on the ground, do they land in their final position all on their own or does god come down and personally, consciously, and deliberately place those coins?
You seem to be running toward a result that explains everything...and thus actually explains nothing.
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Dr Cresswell, posted 08-06-2003 11:43 AM Dr Cresswell has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Agent Uranium [GPC], posted 08-07-2003 9:45 AM Rrhain has replied
 Message 18 by Dr Cresswell, posted 08-07-2003 1:43 PM Rrhain has replied

  
Agent Uranium [GPC]
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 107 (49101)
08-07-2003 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Rrhain
08-06-2003 5:56 PM


Re: I answer not as a creationist
Perhaps God created our Universe as a self-contained portion of existence. Accordingly all Laws of Physics hold true within our Universe and God needs to do nothing else.
A bit of a cop-out, I feel, but don't deists believe something similar? God said: "Let there be light!", The Big Bang happened and God then watched our progress, thus inventing the first true incarnation of The Sims.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Rrhain, posted 08-06-2003 5:56 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Rrhain, posted 08-07-2003 5:53 PM Agent Uranium [GPC] has replied

  
Dr Cresswell
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 107 (49133)
08-07-2003 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Rrhain
08-06-2003 5:56 PM


Re: I answer not as a creationist
quote:
Is there anything that happens on its own or is god required for everything? .... You seem to be running toward a result that explains everything...and thus actually explains nothing.
I'm not actually trying to explain anything (at least, nothing related to the material universe) - I let science do that. In a sense I'm very happy to say everything happens on its own ... science is a self-consistent system that describes things happening on their own and in its field it is complete. However, I don't find a complete scientific description enough. Which is where I have to say God is at work behind and within all things (in a manner that is imperceptible to science). I need God to give meaning above and beyond mere explanation. And I need God to be intimately involved in the universe rather than some deistic God. This does explain everything and nothing, with God directly causing every action and everything acting solely in response to material causes. A contradiction? Of course. I'm happy to live within the contradiction. I don't ask anyone else to join me.
Alan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Rrhain, posted 08-06-2003 5:56 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Rrhain, posted 08-07-2003 6:00 PM Dr Cresswell has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 19 of 107 (49241)
08-07-2003 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Agent Uranium [GPC]
08-07-2003 9:45 AM


Re: I answer not as a creationist
Agent Uranium [GPC] responds to me:
quote:
Perhaps God created our Universe as a self-contained portion of existence. Accordingly all Laws of Physics hold true within our Universe and God needs to do nothing else.
Then life still evolved and was not created. On top of that, life came about naturally and was not created.
Is that really the position you want to take?
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Agent Uranium [GPC], posted 08-07-2003 9:45 AM Agent Uranium [GPC] has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Agent Uranium [GPC], posted 08-07-2003 11:36 PM Rrhain has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 20 of 107 (49243)
08-07-2003 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Dr Cresswell
08-07-2003 1:43 PM


Re: I answer not as a creationist
Dr Cresswell responds to me:
quote:
quote:
Is there anything that happens on its own or is god required for everything? .... You seem to be running toward a result that explains everything...and thus actually explains nothing.
I'm not actually trying to explain anything (at least, nothing related to the material universe) - I let science do that. In a sense I'm very happy to say everything happens on its own ... science is a self-consistent system that describes things happening on their own and in its field it is complete. However, I don't find a complete scientific description enough. Which is where I have to say God is at work behind and within all things (in a manner that is imperceptible to science).
Um, then you're saying that god is required for everything. If "god is at work behind and within all things," then you gotta have god in there.
Is there anything that can happen without god?
And by the way: If something is imperceptible, how do you know it's there?
quote:
I need God to give meaning above and beyond mere explanation.
That's a completely separate question.
quote:
And I need God to be intimately involved in the universe rather than some deistic God. This does explain everything and nothing, with God directly causing every action and everything acting solely in response to material causes.
No, that isn't explaining everything and nothing. That's direct contradiction.
The point behind an explanation that explains everything actually explains nothing is that the explanation is consistent with every possible outcome. We're trying to find out of X has any effect upon process Y. If every single possible result of Y is consistent with X, then the presence of X doesn't actually change anything. Every possible outcome is consistent so rather than explaining something, we have explained absolutely nothing.
Instead, what you're saying is that god, a supernatural being, makes everything happen and then turning around and saying that those things are natural.
Well, it can't be both. Supernatural beings behave in supernatural ways. If it's natural, then it cannot be a supernatural action.
quote:
A contradiction? Of course. I'm happy to live within the contradiction. I don't ask anyone else to join me.
All I'm asking is that you be honest and admit that it's illogical and thus has no evidence to support it.
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Dr Cresswell, posted 08-07-2003 1:43 PM Dr Cresswell has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Dr Cresswell, posted 08-07-2003 6:22 PM Rrhain has not replied
 Message 23 by Newborn, posted 08-31-2003 9:09 PM Rrhain has not replied
 Message 69 by balyons, posted 09-09-2003 9:11 PM Rrhain has not replied

  
Dr Cresswell
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 107 (49251)
08-07-2003 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Rrhain
08-07-2003 6:00 PM


Re: I answer not as a creationist
quote:
And by the way: If something is imperceptible, how do you know it's there?
I said imperceptible to science (ie you can't set up an experiment to measure God at work). Science isn't the only route to knowledge. But, I'm not going to try to use science to prove God - because that is basically an abuse of science.
quote:
quote:
I need God to give meaning above and beyond mere explanation.
That's a completely separate question.
Well, not really. If all that I needed was an explanation of the origins of life on earth or elsewhere then yes it would be seperate. As it is the meaning and purpose that my belief in God gives that requires me to examine how that God relates to the universe ... that examination has led me to my views regarding God being at work in all things.
quote:
No, that isn't explaining everything and nothing. That's direct contradiction.
As I admit. I am trying to contemplate a God I believe in who is infinitely more than I am ... that that results in direct contradiction doesn't worry me - anymore than classical Christian teaching such as God being One and Three or Christ being fully God and man.
quote:
Well, it can't be both. Supernatural beings behave in supernatural ways. If it's natural, then it cannot be a supernatural action.
Why can't the supernatural result in natural actions that are consistant with purely natural processes - which is what I'm proposing. I grant that if all you're interested in is natural processes then the supernatural is superfluous - which is why science done properly doesn't look beyond the natural, nor can it provide proof for the supernatural. But I'm not interested solely in natural processes.
Alan
PS we've moved a long way from the question of life elsewhere. Do you want to start another topic to follow this discussion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Rrhain, posted 08-07-2003 6:00 PM Rrhain has not replied

  
Agent Uranium [GPC]
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 107 (49296)
08-07-2003 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Rrhain
08-07-2003 5:53 PM


Re: I answer not as a creationist
Rrhain asks:
Is that really the position you want to take?
I don't take any "position" as such. I saw a topic and have decided to discuss various points relating to it. Here I merely suggested certain possible "explanations". I'd hate to think people would classify me as believing these things. I merely want to try all possibilities!
Taken to a election campaign context - think of me not as a loyal supporter of one party or another but as a Floating Voter. I explore various avenues, and in this case happened to have gone down the God & Creationism route.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Rrhain, posted 08-07-2003 5:53 PM Rrhain has not replied

  
Newborn
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 107 (53128)
08-31-2003 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Rrhain
08-07-2003 6:00 PM


Re: I answer not as a creationist
Rrhain,are you from the 17th century?
Its because you probably didnt heard about Quantum mechanics neither about Quantum field theory.You are yet a Newtonian.
Go read about it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Rrhain, posted 08-07-2003 6:00 PM Rrhain has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by crashfrog, posted 08-31-2003 9:19 PM Newborn has not replied
 Message 25 by John, posted 08-31-2003 10:09 PM Newborn has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 24 of 107 (53130)
08-31-2003 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Newborn
08-31-2003 9:09 PM


Rrhain,are you from the 17th century?
Its because you probably didnt heard about Quantum mechanics neither about Quantum field theory.You are yet a Newtonian.
Go read about it.
This from the guy who thinks brains are quantum computers? Maybe you'd like to bone up on science before you start throwing around science-sounding buzzwords. After all I didn't see any discussion of physics in Rrhain's post. Maybe you'd like to point out his Newtonianism?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Newborn, posted 08-31-2003 9:09 PM Newborn has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 107 (53133)
08-31-2003 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Newborn
08-31-2003 9:09 PM


Re: I answer not as a creationist
quote:
Rrhain,are you from the 17th century?
More like, "from the third or fourth century BC." He's a Platonist.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Newborn, posted 08-31-2003 9:09 PM Newborn has not replied

  
defenderofthefaith
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 107 (53158)
09-01-2003 5:22 AM


quote:
if Other Life in the Universe is Discovered wouldn't this pose a Problem for the Bible? which seems to say the earth is the Center of the Universe. and if Intelligent Life is found(like us) wouldn't this Falsify us Being the most perfect creation? Please creationists Post!
Dear DC85
If other sentient life was discovered, it would cause problems for literal, Bible-believing Christianity. Exactly why I will not bring up unless you really want to get all epistemological. That's why I don't believe aliens exist.
As Agent Uranium pointed out, sophisticated sentient life elsewhere in the universe would cause as many - if not more - problems for evolution. It happened by chance here, and in other places, all in the same approximate time frame? Agent Uranium has a good point here. Non-sentient life would also cause problems for evolution, but not as many for creationism or Christianity, because non-sentient beings wouldn't have the opportunity to choose sin or rebellion, etc.
DC85, what dinosaur is that on your avatar?
Dr Cresswell, you sound like a creationist. Am I right?
By the way, we're still talking about if other sentient life is discovered. How long have SETI been looking...?

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by nator, posted 09-01-2003 9:11 AM defenderofthefaith has replied
 Message 28 by DC85, posted 09-01-2003 11:02 AM defenderofthefaith has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 27 of 107 (53184)
09-01-2003 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by defenderofthefaith
09-01-2003 5:22 AM


quote:
If other sentient life was discovered, it would cause problems for literal, Bible-believing Christianity.
Why does the life have to be "sentient" for it to be a problem?
quote:
That's why I don't believe aliens exist.
Interesting.
You disbelive the existence of aliens because it is inconsistent with the premise of your religion and not because of evidence for or against their existence.
quote:
As Agent Uranium pointed out, sophisticated sentient life elsewhere in the universe would cause as many - if not more - problems for evolution.
No, not at all.
Evolution happens. We can and do watch it happening in the lab and in the field. There is nothing in Evolutionary theory (or Abiogenesis theory, for that matter) which says it is impossible that life or Evolution could occur elsewhere.
quote:
It happened by chance here, and in other places, all in the same approximate time frame?
Why not?
If it happened all over the place, then it would seem that it is not so very difficult or unlikely for life to arise.
quote:
Agent Uranium has a good point here. Non-sentient life would also cause problems for evolution, but not as many for creationism or Christianity, because non-sentient beings wouldn't have the opportunity to choose sin or rebellion, etc.
Why would ANY life elsewhere cause problems for science?
Also, the problem for Biblical literalists and life elsewhere in the universe is not the "choosing of sin" or whatnot. It is the idea that God didn't mention anything in the Bible about life elsewhere. Genesis makes it sound like the Earth is all there is and it is special and unique, especially (male) humans. Finding life elsewhere would rather upset this idea, no?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by defenderofthefaith, posted 09-01-2003 5:22 AM defenderofthefaith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by defenderofthefaith, posted 09-04-2003 6:47 AM nator has replied
 Message 31 by Dr Jack, posted 09-04-2003 7:05 AM nator has replied

  
DC85
Member (Idle past 379 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 28 of 107 (53213)
09-01-2003 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by defenderofthefaith
09-01-2003 5:22 AM


so you don't Believe in them Because it contradicts your Bible? hmmmm
lets say for your sake God made the universe.... Why is it so Big if we are the only creatures in it? Was God Just bored? About it making problems for science.. how can it? The Only problem I can see maybe coming from it is the Cell theory. I mean life can be in many odd shapes and sizes and they might not be built the same as life on earth but it would not make it false It would just need to change to "life on Earth contain cells" and "life on Planet X contain bleeps or something"
Also the Dinosaur on my avatar is a Spinosaurus

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by defenderofthefaith, posted 09-01-2003 5:22 AM defenderofthefaith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by defenderofthefaith, posted 09-04-2003 6:52 AM DC85 has not replied

  
defenderofthefaith
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 107 (53822)
09-04-2003 6:47 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by nator
09-01-2003 9:11 AM


Dear schrafinator,
The Bible does indicate that Earth is the centre of the universe, at least in matters of God's purpose, and possibly physically also. ( No, I'm a heliocentrist! Really!) I can also infer from the Bible that aliens do not exist, and science is also involved, because there is no scientific basis for aliens' existence.
The chances against evolution producing the multitude of efficient creatures on this earth alone are impossible. Agent Uranium believes it is possible, but he does see the way that similar evolution producing all these works of art on other worlds as well, in the same cosmic timeframe as that in which we exist, would raise further issues with probability.
You are completely correct in saying that the very existence of aliens would contradict the Bible. Yet we have found not the least primitive molecule.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by nator, posted 09-01-2003 9:11 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by nator, posted 09-04-2003 8:52 PM defenderofthefaith has replied

  
defenderofthefaith
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 107 (53823)
09-04-2003 6:52 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by DC85
09-01-2003 11:02 AM


Dear DC85,
Not "bored", I would say. He's naturally creative and likes working with His hands. "The heavens declare the glory of God" - Psalm 19:1 - and I think that big universe is there for our pleasure, His glory, and study purposes, etc. Just imagine how we'd feel in big black emptiness with a sun, the earth, and nothing else.
A spinosaurus, hmmm? Looks like a carnivore with one of those big fans.
Yours sincerely,
Defender of the Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by DC85, posted 09-01-2003 11:02 AM DC85 has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024