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Author Topic:   Simultaneous appearance of written language and common man
Dr Jack
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Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 13 of 86 (492544)
01-01-2009 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Peg
01-01-2009 5:05 AM


So, I'm curious, since you "don't trust carbon dating" why are you so confident of the 3000 BC date for writing?

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 Message 10 by Peg, posted 01-01-2009 5:05 AM Peg has replied

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 19 of 86 (492559)
01-01-2009 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Peg
01-01-2009 9:26 AM


Dates appear on later written records, yes, but they do not appear on the earliest written records. And even where dates do appear, you cannot simply work from the calender to the date in most cases because each calender uses differing fixed points, and we need to date these points in order to accurately calibrate the calender.

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 62 of 86 (492837)
01-03-2009 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Brian
01-03-2009 7:15 AM


Re: Exact Year
The clay tablets from Uruk were used unfired, but we know of so many of them because a large number (a few thousand) were baked when the city went up in flames. That would give a upper limit to the age of the tablets.

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 84 of 86 (493016)
01-05-2009 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Peg
01-04-2009 3:23 AM


Re: The Real Question
to me, this is saying that the humans of around 5,800 years ago were the first to use agriculture, build cities and write. This is what i said pages ago but it seems most of you disagree. If its saying something other then that, could someone spell it out to me in laymans terms.
You seem to be understanding this as saying that all these things sprung forth fully formed and simultaneously. This is not the case.
In fact the development of each shows a slow pattern of development. Shortly after the glaciers retreated at the end of the last ice age, we find the first evidence of populations that followed a pattern of prolonged settlement (at least three seasons out of the year) at sites such as Ohalo II and Neve David in what is now Israel. The people were living in small (sub-100) groups, and supporting themselves by hunting, gathering and fishing but living in permanent settlements. These settlements date to 15,000-18,000 BCE.
Dogs were probably domesticated around 14,000 BCE (although much older dates (~150,000 BCE) are suggested by some genetic analysis, these are generally regarded as suspect), but there is no evidence that they were eaten.
The first evidence of agriculture comes from around 8000-9000 BCE at a place called Abu Hureya, again in the Middle East, where Rye was the first domesticated crop. It is difficult, of course, to determine when domestication occurs exactly from Archaeological records and it is likely that "semi-domestication" of the sort still practiced by many hunter-gatherers today was conducted before this time, by the scattering of wild seeds. The evidence for crops domestication comes from several sources: an increase in seed size, an increase in rachis strength (in wild grasses, the seeds fall off of their own accord, in domesticated varieties they must be threshed to remove them - the bit go the plant that holds the seeds on is called the rachis) and evidence of increased tooth wear and use of grinding stones in the human remains.
Animal domestication also occurred at Abu Hureya with sheep and goats probably being the first domesticated animals, although it was several thousand more years before sheep were bred to have their distinctive woolly coats.
Around 7000 BCE, at a place called atalhyk, there is a fascinating "pre-city". With a population of 5000-8000 it was a big place, bigger than some later cities but it had no streets (building were built one against another and could only be entered through the roof), no elites and no specialists.
Which brings us to Uruk, around 4000 BCE, which is generally recognised as the first city in the world, and the first place that writing arose (note that although Uruk was the first to develop writing, writing itself was independently developed in a great many places).
So, you see, there is no sudden appearance of these things - each has a deep history going back thousands of years before they all came together in the same place. Once they'd developed and unified in the same culture, they spread out from their under various states and empires - which I think is what your source was talking about.

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