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Author Topic:   Throwing Stuff Down A Mineshaft
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3665 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 6 of 69 (493323)
01-08-2009 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by iano
01-08-2009 8:47 AM


Re: Thought experiment
So I suppose acceleration due to gravity increases as you head nearer the centre of the earth.
That's the magic gravity gnome that lives at the centre of the Earth.
What is it that causes the gravity? And if you are halfway to the centre of the Earth, where is that thing that causes the gravity?

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3665 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 9 of 69 (493328)
01-08-2009 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Larni
01-08-2009 9:02 AM


Re: Thought experiment
If you get half way to the center would the mass behind you begin to exert gravitational influence on you?
Absolutely. And it all works out beautifully - everything in the shell from the surface down to your radius exactly cancels out. So the stuff that's behind you exactly balance the equivalent stuff on the other side of the planet, leaving just the mass that is below you that is relevant. So if you are 2000km from the centre, your gravitational acceleartion is the same as standing on a planet with radius 2000km (assuming same density). Cool
Even better, just think what happens if you are inside a hollow shell of matter. By the above, there is no gravity at all! You are weightless anywhere inside the shell, yet anything outside the shell feels the inward gravitational pull as normal! This is the gravitational analogue of the Faraday Cage effect.

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Replies to this message:
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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3665 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 10 of 69 (493329)
01-08-2009 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by iano
01-08-2009 8:47 AM


Re: Thought experiment
So I suppose acceleration due to gravity increases as you head nearer the centre of the earth.
Just to be clear, if I wasn't before - this is wrong. As is
You drop something from the surface and its acceleration increases all the way to the centre.
You are describing the velocity, not the acceleration.
The acceleration decreases all the way to the centre, where it is zero. As you overshoot, the acceleration grows again (linearly with depth) but in the opposite direction.
But as Parasomnium explains, your picture of what happens is correct.

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3665 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 12 of 69 (493331)
01-08-2009 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Larni
01-08-2009 9:25 AM


Re: Thought experiment
Is it something like being a massive lagrange point covering the volume of the inside of the sphere?
Yes, it is - though I hadn't thought of it that way - and it's a state of neutral equilibrium.

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3665 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 21 of 69 (493348)
01-08-2009 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Parasomnium
01-08-2009 9:32 AM


Re: Thought experiment
Are you sure about this?
Oh, very sure I can take you through the integration if you like...

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Replies to this message:
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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3665 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 28 of 69 (493359)
01-08-2009 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by iano
01-08-2009 11:06 AM


Re: Thought experiment
what frequency would this occur at?
0.0002 Hz

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3665 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 32 of 69 (493379)
01-08-2009 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Parasomnium
01-08-2009 11:42 AM


Re: Thought experiment
But I was under the impression that you can do the maths for the gravitational effects of any massive object by treating it as a point mass.
Only if you are located outside the shell. Once inside the shell, you experience no force whatsoever at any point. There is no "floating" towards the centre.
It's straightforward calculus, just integrating hoops from pole to pole.

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3665 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 33 of 69 (493380)
01-08-2009 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Stile
01-08-2009 10:50 AM


Re: Thought experiment
Inside the hollow part, you have all the tiny points actually pulling you away towards the surface. Given a perfect sphere, each point on one side has an equal point on the exact opposite side that cancels out. Add in a bit of air resistance and no matter where you are in the centre area, you'll eventually "float" to the centre of the sphere.
No, there is no tendancy towards the centre, nor any other point. There is zero gravitational force on the test mass inside the spherical shell.
*Note: By "cancels out" we don't mean that the forces go away. It's that the forces are equal-but-opposite. The forces are all still there, and all as strong as they were before, it's just that there's no movement as a result of those forces.
Hmmm... if you have two sine waves of enormous amplitude coincide out of phase, would you say that there are are equal and opposite waves at those points, or that there are no waves at those points

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3665 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 34 of 69 (493381)
01-08-2009 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Stile
01-08-2009 10:58 AM


Re: Thought experiment
I, um.. would like to see the integration on this
I'm going to cheat and refer you here as I hate trying to typeset maths at EvC
'm assuming that you're not "weightless" if you're being pulled towards the centre of mass... you just feel like you have very little weight. But the only place you actually feel truly "weightless" would be at the centre of mass, no?
No, you are truly weightless, and would be in this state anywhere inside the shell.

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3665 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 42 of 69 (493390)
01-08-2009 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Stile
01-08-2009 1:05 PM


Re: Thought experiment
I take it the gravitational forces act via waves, then?
No more or less than any other force. Gravity is great because it is the real deal - a fundemental force that we can see up close. E/M we can too, if we have a pair of magnets. But E/M is behind just about every other force we encounter, whether it is lifting weights, pushing doors, trains pulling trucks, etc. The large scale mechanical forces are simply infinitely tangled webs of electromagnetic interactions of which we have no awareness. And fundemental forces simply come down to numbers. What is the force's value at this point in space. At that point, there is no way to tell whether a value of +15 is made of +25 and -10, +1000000000000015 and -1000000000000000, etc.

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3665 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 53 of 69 (493505)
01-09-2009 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Rrhain
01-09-2009 2:56 AM


Re: A general reply
Indeed, assuming that there is no other gravitational field anywhere else in the universe, there is no gravitation pull inside a perfectly uniform, spherical shell.
Relative to the shell, it doesn't matter what the external gravitational field is. The shell will respond to that field identically to the shell occupant, and again the occupant will be entirely weightless within the shell.

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3665 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 59 of 69 (493540)
01-09-2009 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by subbie
01-09-2009 10:11 AM


Re: A general reply
Thus, as I see it, he'll eventually bounce off the side.
Probably not a bounce as it is a very smooth process. You will end up against one side of the tunnel which could introduce some nasty friction burns. Your contact will decelerate your rotational motion as you drop towards the centre and then re-accelerate you back to full rotational speed back on the other side.
Or just build the tunnel between the poles...

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3665 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 62 of 69 (493658)
01-10-2009 6:09 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Rrhain
01-09-2009 11:32 PM


But if the moon were sitting on the earth, you would be standing on the shell were it was touching and would not be able to float to the top.
Obviously, in this case you are no longer simply inside a spherical shell, but a very lopsided mass distribution
Not quite what you said, with
Rrhain writes:
Indeed, assuming that there is no other gravitational field anywhere else in the universe

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3665 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 64 of 69 (493845)
01-11-2009 5:14 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Rrhain
01-10-2009 9:48 PM


And if there were a gravitational field without the shell actually touching anything else, what then? No, not in free fall...the shell isn't moving...
Er, what do you mean by not "moving"? How is it not in free-fall? Does it now have engines strapped to the shell which are firing?
Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3665 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 66 of 69 (493920)
01-11-2009 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Rrhain
01-11-2009 5:31 PM


Perhaps the shell is magnetic
Yes, I even started to mention this possibility in my last reply but couldn't be arsed
The point I was trying to make is that under the influence of just the shell, a spherical shell's geometry provides perfect gravitational counterbalance in all directions internally.
Yes, your initial wording:
Indeed, assuming that there is no other gravitational field anywhere else in the universe, there is no gravitation pull inside a perfectly uniform, spherical shell.
explicity denies the essential "Faraday Cage"-like nature of the shell. It actually shields you from knowledge of the external gravitational fields, by nature of the shell acting as a point source to external fields, i.e. it responds the same as you do, inside the shell. This is what I am trying to emphasise. The fact that you can introduce other fields/fluids or change the mass distribution is irrelevant.

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