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Author Topic:   Innevitable Armageddon (theory)
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1273 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 16 of 40 (492343)
12-30-2008 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Peg
12-29-2008 8:34 PM


Re: Armageddon is not innevitable unless we desire it to be!
no,
God will put an end to war by destroying war mongers

those who are seeking peace will get it.

This peace-loving nature of God you claim flies in the face of your his warmongering nature of your god in the Bible as well as your own previous statements extolling armageddon:

Peg writes:

if you look at the bible armageddon, it is said to be Gods war to end wickedness and human suffering ...

so, for me, Armageddon is something to look forward to ...

Bring it on

I Samuel 15:18 writes:

Go and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites; make war on them until you have wiped them out.

Revelations 19:11 writes:

I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war, . His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great.

Even Jesus says

Matthew 10:34 writes:

Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.


For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan
This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Peg, posted 12-29-2008 8:34 PM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Peg, posted 01-01-2009 1:17 AM DevilsAdvocate has responded

  
Bailey
Member (Idle past 2542 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 17 of 40 (492391)
12-30-2008 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Blue Jay
12-30-2008 1:42 AM


Re: Reality does not need groupies ...
Thank you for the exchange.

Mantis writes:

Bailey writes:

DA writes:

Armageddon is not innevitable unless we as a species desire it to be!

A very uplifting assertion, though it appears unfortunately untrue; reality will manifest itself whether it is ignored or pursued. The conscious pursuit of armageddon is only one of a number of ways to reach the 'innevitable'. We as a species have incidentally (accidently?) arranged the possibility of armageddon within our reality, independently of such purposes as it may provide. This simply implies we have created the egg before the chicken; we do not need to desire these 'innevitable' scrambled eggs in order to blow up the chicken though.

Historically speaking, reality suggests armageddon (species suicide) is seemingly innevitable. Technology may sustain humanity to its population limit, but it will not likely save humanity from final and fatal catastrophe, and military technologies like weaponized chemicals and atom bombs will likely facilitate such a disaster. Additionally, armageddon is simply possible before fatally innevitable or finally purposed and the bulk of mankind does not appear to fancy a desire to participate in Armageddon's festivities. Regardless of fanatical persistence, religious fringe beliefs of select few, though increasing, have not willed their fate upon the rest of us; to think otherwise is to accept religion. Respectively, our species need not desire armageddon, or the threat it seems to provide, in order for it to manifest in reality.

In conclusion, being naive to such ends throughout the ages has encouraged progress thus far. Hence, ignoring the reality of Armageddon should reasonably permit and promote its future manifestation. A prerequisite stipulating preconceived desire for annihilation of mankind does not seem necessary to promote the onset of armageddon (species suicide); such a reality will manifest itself whether it is ignored, pursued or otherwise. Respectively, ignoring the reality of the Golden Rule should reasonably permit and promote its future manifestation; one need not subscribe to succumb.

We may likely agree that one must believe in something or they'll fall for anything.

I'm afraid I disagree strongly with this. Belief tends to make more people fall for stuff than disbelief. In fact, "disbelief," in my mind, is the diametric opposite of "falling for something."

Belief leads to attachment, and attachment leads to passion, which is what raises tempers and causes wars. Disbelief, or at least healthy skepticism, goes a long way towards curbing one's passion.

Now, if everybody could believe in the same something, it would work out fine, but, as many religions are finding, the only way to get people to believe in the same something is by force. Which, ironically, defeats the entire purpose of trying to get everyone to believe in the same something.

Ironically, I've now come to the same conclusion that you did, by assuming the exact opposite conditions. That's depressing.

lol

That last comment was more tongue in cheek. Even after posting 'believe', I couldn't get the words 'offer crediblity' out of my head ...

Shoulda made the edit.

One Love

Edited by Bailey, : grammar


I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, I'm just a fool playing with ideas.
My only intention is to tickle your thinker. Trust nothing I say. Learn for yourself.
Think for yourself.

Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Blue Jay, posted 12-30-2008 1:42 AM Blue Jay has not yet responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3102 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 18 of 40 (492499)
01-01-2009 1:17 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by DevilsAdvocate
12-30-2008 12:27 PM


Re: Armageddon is not innevitable unless we desire it to be!
as a person yourself who chose to fight a war, you no doubt did so because you believed it was the only way to accomplish some sort of peace?

Is it so unreasonable to believe that God might see a need for war under certain circumstances?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-30-2008 12:27 PM DevilsAdvocate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-01-2009 10:16 PM Peg has not yet responded
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 278 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 19 of 40 (492503)
01-01-2009 1:38 AM


Armageddon
Armageddon is not inevitable in this context because Armageddon is a myth.

And Armageddon tired of it! ; - )


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1273 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 20 of 40 (492634)
01-01-2009 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Peg
01-01-2009 1:17 AM


Re: Armageddon is not innevitable unless we desire it to be!
as a person yourself who chose to fight a war,

First, I did not CHOOSE to fight a war. I choose to serve in the United States military to defend the rights and freedoms granted to my country by its Constitution. If I am ordered to fight in a war than I am willingly or unwillingly obligated to fight that war. However that does not mean I have to (privately) agree with the reasons we went to war in the first place though publically I cannot express this opinion due to the obvious conflict of interest and negative image it would give to the military (which could potentially weaken its resolve).

you no doubt did so because you believed it was the only way to accomplish some sort of peace?

Is it so unreasonable to believe that God might see a need for war under certain circumstances?

Did God abide by the internationally recognised Geneva Convention, NATO and U.S. military rules of engagement, the Uniform Code of Military Justice, or any of the other hundreds of Laws of Armed Conflict that helps protect against unwanton and needless suffering?

I think not. If your blood-thirsty god was tried in at the International Code of Justice at the Hague or by a military tribunal in the US he would most certainly be convicted of no less than 12 exceptionally grave war crimes (which he most certainly would be subject to as these are crimes which were "part of a plan or policy or as part of a large-scale commission of such crimes"):

1. Willful killing, or causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health
2. Torture or inhumane treatment
3. Unlawful wanton destruction or appropriation of property
4. Depriving a prisoner of war of a fair trial
5. Unlawful deportation, confinement or transfer
6. Directing attacks against civilians
7. Killing a surrendered combatant
8. Settlement of occupied territory
9. Settlement of occupied territory
10. Summary execution
11. Pillage
12. Rape, sexual slavery, forced prostitution or forced pregnancy

There is a big difference between ruthlessly commanding people to kill men, women, children and infants out of some sick, twisted, maniachal killing spree and the measures used by the Allies during WWII to defend freedom and democracy and protect those who could not protect themselves. Did we utterly wipe out all the Germans? Did we utterly wipe out all the Japanese? And what did we do after these wars? The US rebuilt these countries and restored their land and their freedoms as well as helping to rebuild their economies.

BTW I am not a big advocate of all the conflicts the US has gotten into during its history, some were avoidable through peaceful/diplomatic means in my opinion (i.e. WWI, Vietnam, etc).

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.


For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Mespo
Member (Idle past 1057 days)
Posts: 158
From: Mesopotamia, Ohio, USA
Joined: 09-19-2002


Message 21 of 40 (493245)
01-07-2009 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by DevilsAdvocate
01-01-2009 10:16 PM


Something worse than Armageddon
Nice posts, DevilsAdvocate...

...and Peg, if you're reading... I did not CHOOSE to be in Vietnam, or fight a war either. Although my cirucmstances were more a matter of timing than choice. (i.e. Gulf of Tonkin incident while I was in navy boot camp. "Vietnam is where, Chief?")

Anyway, to get to my point. I don't think mankind can stand the though of prolonged peace. Just think of it. No Armageddon. Instead, Universal Peace breaks out and there is a tremendous world-wide party. And then it slowly dawns on people that the same saints, sinners, bravehearts and bastards that were there yesterday are still there today and will be tomorrow. God DID NOT kill the people you hate. As a matter of fact, God didn't do ANYTHING!!. And it gets worse. You have to be responsible for your own words and deeds. You have to take responsibility for your own actions. God doesn't descend from a cloud and kick the ass of the bully down the street. Or the bully in the next city, or country or religion.

OH WOE, poor Humankind! What to do? What to do? Where is Dick Cheney when you need him?

BTW, Peg - I'm not a biblical scholar, but I don't remember Jesus riding into Jerusalem in a Roman war chariot. I think his message had something more to do with love and peace. So, who am I to argue with the Big Kahuna?

(:raig


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 870 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 22 of 40 (493258)
01-07-2009 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Mespo
01-07-2009 3:09 PM


Re: Something worse than Armageddon
Hi, Mespo.

You've got an interesting thought.

So, would you suspect that the widespread belief that God will take care of the wicked is currently preventing a lot of fundamentalists from trying to take care of the wicked themselves?

Maybe, in some strange way, belief in Armageddon is having a positive effect?


I'm Bluejay.

Darwin loves you.


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Replies to this message:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2362 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 23 of 40 (493259)
01-07-2009 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Peg
01-01-2009 1:17 AM


Re: Armageddon is not innevitable unless we desire it to be!
as a person yourself who chose to fight a war, you no doubt did so because you believed it was the only way to accomplish some sort of peace?

Most military people don't fight wars because they want to, but because they are ordered to a war zone. The military is not a democracy. Soldiers can't pick & choose whether they want to fight or not. I fought in Vietnam, not because I agreed with the war, but as a US citizen, I was obligated to fight.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Agobot
Member (Idle past 3702 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 24 of 40 (493298)
01-08-2009 6:34 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by bluescat48
01-07-2009 6:20 PM


Re: Armageddon is not innevitable unless we desire it to be!
bluescat writes:

Most military people don't fight wars because they want to, but because they are ordered to a war zone. The military is not a democracy. Soldiers can't pick & choose whether they want to fight or not. I fought in Vietnam, not because I agreed with the war, but as a US citizen, I was obligated to fight.

I wonder how the religious folks act in such military circumstances. Maybe you have some memories - how does it feel for a theist to hmmm, how do i say this, send someone(a Vietnamese) to heaven by a gunshot, whereby breaking the will of God and the 10 commandmants? You may choose not to answer and sorry if this brings back nasty memories.


This message is a reply to:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2362 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 25 of 40 (493315)
01-08-2009 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Agobot
01-08-2009 6:34 AM


Re: Armageddon is not innevitable unless we desire it to be!
I wonder how the religious folks act in such military circumstances. Maybe you have some memories - how does it feel for a theist to hmmm, how do i say this, send someone(a Vietnamese) to heaven by a gunshot, whereby breaking the will of God and the 10 commandmants? You may choose not to answer and sorry if this brings back nasty memories.

I never encountered anyone who even thought of sending someone to heaven or breaking the the will of God. The word was survival. If I was being shot at my thinking was to survive which meant shoot back. The moral aspect never enters.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969


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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 40 (493352)
01-08-2009 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by killinghurts
12-01-2008 12:30 AM


Prophecy Armageddon
I'm proposing the same thing for Armageddon. It's going to happen simply because Humans imagine it will. They are fixated on it, therefore it *will* happen.

Prophecies of such an event has been prophesied for millinia, including the prophet Daniel, centuries BC for the latter day messianic period. These prophecies all corroborate events required to happen before Armageddon.

Over the centuries, ignorant wolf criers have ignored the requirements for Armageddon and have failed to discern the signs of
the times.

Jesus himself, in Matthew 24, Mark 11 and Luke 21 corroborated OT prophets by specifying that Jerusalem would be occupied by Gentile nations until Gentile occupation ended and Jews returned. That prophecy had to be fulfilled before Armageddon. That prophecy of Jesus was fulfilled in the 1967 six day war when Jews replaced Gentiles in occupation of the city.

But that's not all. The prophet John corroborated with OT prophets and Jesus to go into detail other specifics leading up to Armageddon; things like numbers and marks for global monetary as is emerging, drought, climate change events, fiery disastrous events, nations drawn into the Middle Eastern nations threatening Israel's right to exist, signs in the sky, etc, etc.

So, Killinghurts, hang onto your hat and side with the Jesus Armageddon band wagon. It's not talk that brings on Armageddon. It's frightful things like the invention of explosives, fast travel, global government, cashless currency and all of that wonderful phenomena that brings on Armageddon as per the prophets of old, not current Armageddon jargon emerging from the mouths of Christians.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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 Message 1 by killinghurts, posted 12-01-2008 12:30 AM killinghurts has not yet responded

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Mespo
Member (Idle past 1057 days)
Posts: 158
From: Mesopotamia, Ohio, USA
Joined: 09-19-2002


Message 27 of 40 (493360)
01-08-2009 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Buzsaw
01-08-2009 10:52 AM


Re: Prophecy Armageddon
things like numbers and marks for global monetary as is emerging..

What a concept, Buzsaw!!

You mean if I have an image of Armageddon engraved on my Capital One card, I can expedite the Final Conflict? Yowzaa!

(:raig


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Mespo
Member (Idle past 1057 days)
Posts: 158
From: Mesopotamia, Ohio, USA
Joined: 09-19-2002


Message 28 of 40 (493367)
01-08-2009 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Blue Jay
01-07-2009 6:13 PM


Re: Something worse than Armageddon
Hi Mantis,

So, would you suspect that the widespread belief that God will take care of the wicked is currently preventing a lot of fundamentalists from trying to take care of the wicked themselves?

Maybe, in some strange way, belief in Armageddon is having a positive effect?

In some ways, belief in Armageddon is a double-edged sword.

On the one hand, God will punish that big bully that stole my school lunch money, so I don't have to do anything.

On the other hand, God will EVENTUALLY punish that big bully, but in the meantime, how much lunch money am I going to let that bully steal? Maybe I better do something about it, now.

It's all about HOPE, I think. Both in a positive and negative connotation.

HOWEVER (he continued...) the whole Aramageddon schtick has to be reconciled with what Jesus said in the Beatitudes. Since the Sermon on the Mount came straight from the horses's mouth (Sorry Jesus), and the Armageddon story came from John, who had been exiled for umpteen years, had a bad case of hemorrhoids and lack-o-nookie, then who are you going to believe?

My money is on the guy preaching on the hill side who served fish and chips afterwards.

(:raig


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PaulK
Member
Posts: 15083
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 29 of 40 (493393)
01-08-2009 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Buzsaw
01-08-2009 10:52 AM


Re: Prophecy Armageddon
quote:

Prophecies of such an event has been prophesied for millinia, including the prophet Daniel, centuries BC for the latter day messianic period. These prophecies all corroborate events required to happen before Armageddon.

That would be the Daniel who said that the End Times would occur in the latter days of the Hellenistic kingdoms (Daniel 8:20-26).

quote:

Jesus himself, in Matthew 24, Mark 11 and Luke 21 corroborated OT prophets by specifying that Jerusalem would be occupied by Gentile nations until Gentile occupation ended and Jews returned. That prophecy had to be fulfilled before Armageddon.

Jesus says no such thing in Mark 11 - or Mark 13, which you probably meant. Nor does he in the parallel passages in Matthew 24.

quote:

But that's not all. The prophet John corroborated with OT prophets and Jesus to go into detail other specifics leading up to Armageddon; things like numbers and marks for global monetary as is emerging, drought, climate change events, fiery disastrous events, nations drawn into the Middle Eastern nations threatening Israel's right to exist, signs in the sky, etc, etc.


The Revelation doesn't predict "numbers or marks for global monetary[sic]". Most of the rest is pretty dodgy too,
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1273 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 30 of 40 (493408)
01-08-2009 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Agobot
01-08-2009 6:34 AM


Re: Armageddon is not innevitable unless we desire it to be!
I wonder how the religious folks act in such military circumstances. Maybe you have some memories - how does it feel for a theist to hmmm, how do i say this, send someone(a Vietnamese) to heaven by a gunshot, whereby breaking the will of God and the 10 commandmants? You may choose not to answer and sorry if this brings back nasty memories.

I have not been in a direct one on one gunfight in a wartime situation but over a decade ago I had had my finger on the button to send several Iranian gunboats who were threatening my ship in the northern Persian Gulf to their doom. However, from my experience I don't think anyone in the military in this type of situation is thinking of whether we are sending people to heaven or hell at that frantic, adreniline-motivated moment in time. Instead we doing everything in our power to remain calm, think clearly and to try to ensure our survival in this encounter. I may be wrong but this is how I felt. Only after the fact did I flashback and think back about the more grandiose ramifications of my actions such as how many people I could have killed, if they had families, etc. BTW at the time I was a staunch Bible-thumping Christian.

My honest opinion is that when your life or the life of someone you love is threatened the last thing you think about is religion or any other philosophical musings. When adrenaline kicks in your body regresses back to its animal-like primal behaviors (much like when we turn off our brain and rely totally on our primal urges and emotions i.e. sex, starvation, fear, fight or flight, etc) and we usually have to force ourselves think as rational law-abiding human beings.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.


For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan
This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Agobot, posted 01-08-2009 6:34 AM Agobot has not yet responded

  
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