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Author Topic:   Innevitable Armageddon (theory)
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3126 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 7 of 40 (492113)
12-28-2008 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Peg
12-27-2008 11:26 PM


Armageddon is not innevitable unless we desire it to be!
if you look at the bible armageddon, it is said to be Gods war to end wickedness and human suffering
the bible says to 'Raise yourselves erect and see the salvation of God'
so, for me, Armageddon is something to look forward to... it will see the destruction of the evil influence of Satan the devil (Gods greatest adversary) it will put an end to corrupt and abusive human rulership and it will ensure that human rights will finally be implemented by God himself
in the words of the prophet Daniel
Dan 2:44 'In the days of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin...it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms and it itself will stand to times indefinite'
thats why Christians were taught by Jesus to pray for Gods Kingdom to come and for his will to be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Bring it on
This attitude (as so eloquantly demonstrated by the illustrious war mongering Peg) for the desire for bloody conflict and self-destruction is the crux of the problem with humanity. It is not until we as a species can rise up out of this selfish, conceited, self-destructive nature and resolve to overlook our racial, ethical, religious and cultural differences can we as a species thrive and really do great things. How can we go to the stars or even to the ends of our solar system if we can't even learn how to peacefully work together for the common good?
Why does Armeggedon have to be our answer to the battle over good and evil? Have we not soiled enough blood in attempting to assert our will's over each other?
One of my favorite modern philosopher, the late Dr. Carl Sagan, had this to say:
Carl Sagan in "Reflections on a Mote of Dust" writes:
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there - on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner, how frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds.
Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the Universe, are challenged by this point of pale light. Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves
Our common goal as human beings should be to end human suffering and to ensure equality, freedom and humane treatment of ALL people around the world.
No, I am not a tree-hugging pacifist. I am a 16 year veteran in the US Navy and have been deployed to the Persian Gulf four times on two destroyers and an aircraft carrier. I have sat at a weapon system console with my hand on the trigger of a multi-million dollar missile system ready to send people I have never met to their doom. I have personally seen the devastating affects of war. However, I am proud of the freedoms my country stands for. It is sometimes necessary to resort to armed conflict to protect those who cannot protect themselves (i.e. WW II, etc) however I also believe we as human beings should strive to do our best to resolve conflicts using democratic/peaceful means before resorting to the devastating ramifications of armed conflict.
Finally a closing thought which describes our dire state of affairs, "Mankind must put an end to war, or war will put an end to mankind." President John F. Kennedy.
Armageddon is not innevitable unless we as a species desire it to be!

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Peg, posted 12-27-2008 11:26 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Peg, posted 12-29-2008 4:16 AM DevilsAdvocate has not replied
 Message 11 by Bailey, posted 12-29-2008 2:24 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3126 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 16 of 40 (492343)
12-30-2008 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Peg
12-29-2008 8:34 PM


Re: Armageddon is not innevitable unless we desire it to be!
no,
God will put an end to war by destroying war mongers
those who are seeking peace will get it.
This peace-loving nature of God you claim flies in the face of your his warmongering nature of your god in the Bible as well as your own previous statements extolling armageddon:
Peg writes:
if you look at the bible armageddon, it is said to be Gods war to end wickedness and human suffering ...
so, for me, Armageddon is something to look forward to ...
Bring it on
I Samuel 15:18 writes:
Go and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites; make war on them until you have wiped them out.
Revelations 19:11 writes:
I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war, . His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great.
Even Jesus says
Matthew 10:34 writes:
Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Peg, posted 12-29-2008 8:34 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Peg, posted 01-01-2009 1:17 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3126 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 20 of 40 (492634)
01-01-2009 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Peg
01-01-2009 1:17 AM


Re: Armageddon is not innevitable unless we desire it to be!
as a person yourself who chose to fight a war,
First, I did not CHOOSE to fight a war. I choose to serve in the United States military to defend the rights and freedoms granted to my country by its Constitution. If I am ordered to fight in a war than I am willingly or unwillingly obligated to fight that war. However that does not mean I have to (privately) agree with the reasons we went to war in the first place though publically I cannot express this opinion due to the obvious conflict of interest and negative image it would give to the military (which could potentially weaken its resolve).
you no doubt did so because you believed it was the only way to accomplish some sort of peace?
Is it so unreasonable to believe that God might see a need for war under certain circumstances?
Did God abide by the internationally recognised Geneva Convention, NATO and U.S. military rules of engagement, the Uniform Code of Military Justice, or any of the other hundreds of Laws of Armed Conflict that helps protect against unwanton and needless suffering?
I think not. If your blood-thirsty god was tried in at the International Code of Justice at the Hague or by a military tribunal in the US he would most certainly be convicted of no less than 12 exceptionally grave war crimes (which he most certainly would be subject to as these are crimes which were "part of a plan or policy or as part of a large-scale commission of such crimes"):
1. Willful killing, or causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health
2. Torture or inhumane treatment
3. Unlawful wanton destruction or appropriation of property
4. Depriving a prisoner of war of a fair trial
5. Unlawful deportation, confinement or transfer
6. Directing attacks against civilians
7. Killing a surrendered combatant
8. Settlement of occupied territory
9. Settlement of occupied territory
10. Summary execution
11. Pillage
12. Rape, sexual slavery, forced prostitution or forced pregnancy
There is a big difference between ruthlessly commanding people to kill men, women, children and infants out of some sick, twisted, maniachal killing spree and the measures used by the Allies during WWII to defend freedom and democracy and protect those who could not protect themselves. Did we utterly wipe out all the Germans? Did we utterly wipe out all the Japanese? And what did we do after these wars? The US rebuilt these countries and restored their land and their freedoms as well as helping to rebuild their economies.
BTW I am not a big advocate of all the conflicts the US has gotten into during its history, some were avoidable through peaceful/diplomatic means in my opinion (i.e. WWI, Vietnam, etc).
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Peg, posted 01-01-2009 1:17 AM Peg has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Mespo, posted 01-07-2009 3:09 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3126 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 30 of 40 (493408)
01-08-2009 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Agobot
01-08-2009 6:34 AM


Re: Armageddon is not innevitable unless we desire it to be!
I wonder how the religious folks act in such military circumstances. Maybe you have some memories - how does it feel for a theist to hmmm, how do i say this, send someone(a Vietnamese) to heaven by a gunshot, whereby breaking the will of God and the 10 commandmants? You may choose not to answer and sorry if this brings back nasty memories.
I have not been in a direct one on one gunfight in a wartime situation but over a decade ago I had had my finger on the button to send several Iranian gunboats who were threatening my ship in the northern Persian Gulf to their doom. However, from my experience I don't think anyone in the military in this type of situation is thinking of whether we are sending people to heaven or hell at that frantic, adreniline-motivated moment in time. Instead we doing everything in our power to remain calm, think clearly and to try to ensure our survival in this encounter. I may be wrong but this is how I felt. Only after the fact did I flashback and think back about the more grandiose ramifications of my actions such as how many people I could have killed, if they had families, etc. BTW at the time I was a staunch Bible-thumping Christian.
My honest opinion is that when your life or the life of someone you love is threatened the last thing you think about is religion or any other philosophical musings. When adrenaline kicks in your body regresses back to its animal-like primal behaviors (much like when we turn off our brain and rely totally on our primal urges and emotions i.e. sex, starvation, fear, fight or flight, etc) and we usually have to force ourselves think as rational law-abiding human beings.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Agobot, posted 01-08-2009 6:34 AM Agobot has not replied

  
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