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Author Topic:   Who & what are the demons ?
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 31 of 349 (493752)
01-10-2009 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by John 10:10
01-10-2009 1:44 PM


Read what I said again. I said demons "can lead to temporal and eternal destruction," not God.
So the Bible's chronicling God commanding the annihilation of the Canaanites including men, women, children, babies, animals as well as pillaging their cities and towns is not destruction? Think again.
Since Jesus believed in real demons and cast them out of persons, I believe in them too.
The current understanding is that many of these "demon possessions" of the 1st century (as well as earlier and later) where nothing more than mental and physical illnesses that people of antiquity could not comprehend much less treat. That is why they resorted to exorcism. In fact this heinous act was a popular way of treating mental disorders up until the 20th century until modern medicine, psychiatry and psychology relegated exorcism as a pseudoscientific, quack, antiquated and downright dangerous practice.
Would you exorcise someone with epilepsy? How about someone suffering from grand mal seizures? Schizophrenia? Bipolar disorder? Depression? Autism? Dementia? How about people speaking in tongues and filled with the spirit in Christian Pentecostal churches?
Your way of thinking is a danger to the medical science and to the existence of modern human beings.
Here is an interesting story which illustrates this backwards, wrong, horrendous and what I consider downright disgusting way of treating tragic mental and physically dibilitating illnesses:
'The Devil in Pictures:The Vatican is steadfast in its defense of exorcism' by Barbie Nadeau, Newsweek International writes:
For the first 22 years of her life, Anneliese Michel was an unremarkable young woman”a teacher in training and part of a devout Roman Catholic family in Germany. She also happened to be an epileptic, and prone to the seizures that often accompany that condition. Somehow, though, her parents convinced themselves that Satan had gotten hold of her soul. They called two local priests, who spent 10 months trying to exorcise the young woman's demons. To avoid interfering with the exorcism, the parents even halted her treatment for epilepsy. Michel finally died, in 1975, at the age of 23, withered and weakened to just 31 kilos from being denied food and water during the exorcism. If the story sounds familiar, that's because it is the premise of Hollywood feature "The Exorcism of Emily Rose," which made its European debut in Italy on Oct. 7. In the real-life case, all four participants in the exorcism were found guilty of negligent homicide, and Michel has been a posthumous European cult hero ever since.
The movie has now reignited a decades-old controversy. A few doctors and scientists have called for an end to exorcisms, or at least for Rome or Brussels to regulate them. The Vatican has responded by digging in its heels. In an effort to add a patina of scientific validity to the ancient practice, which usually involves physical restraint and screaming prayers, last week the church began offering bona fide medical training to its exorcists to help them distinguish between psychological and pathological ailments and possession by the Devil. The class, called Exorcism and Prayers of Deliverance, which began on Oct. 13 at Rome's Athenaeum Pontificium Regina Apostolorium, features mental-health doctors who purport to show which valid medical symptoms can account for those previously thought to be Satan's work. According to Prof. Carlo Climati, one of the course instructors, "With proper scientific study, priests and bishops should be better prepared to distinguish and meet their real foe, the rise of satanic worship." Dr. Scott Lilienfield, professor of psychology at Emory University in Atlanta and an expert in exorcism, disagrees: "Exorcism is the most dangerous hoax in treating mental illness," he says.
You can find this news article here.
BTW if you wonder why I care, my wife has multiple sclerosis, my grandmother has Alzheimer's (as well as dying of cancer) and my nephew is autistic and mentally impaired so I do have some first hand experience in this area.
Maybe you should travel to some places like Hati and Africa and watch them in operation where they openly manifest themselves in the lives of those who honor them.
In most other parts of the world, demons are content with motivating people to kill, steal and destroy as many other humans as possible.
I traveled to over 20 countries in my lifetime including some of the most of the most poverty stricken places on the globe. I have delivered food and aid through humanitarian function both in and out of the Navy to places like Honduras, Central Mexico, Thailand and Indonesia. I have hiked up the Meredon mountains of Honduras and have visited villages with no access even to dirt roads and a weekly killing and eating of a chicken by the village was cause of celebration and bountiful abundance. So don't tell me about visiting other parts of the world. I have literally have been there.
Do you know why they practice exorcism? The practice of exorcism existed long, long before Christianity even came into existence. The earliest religions and cultural practices such as animism was an attempt by humans to explain the unknown. They literally believed that "spirits" existed in everything both animate (animals, water, etc) and inanimate objects (trees, rocks, stars, etc). Some spirits they believed were good and some evil. If people were acting strange or different than what they though they should act, exorcism was an attempt to rectify the situation. As a result of this rampant superstition, lack of education, and the many other detrimental cultural and religious influences on people of that culture, people acted as if they were "demon possessed" i.e. wildly shake, trances, talked gibberish, etc. This behavior was not only condoned but encouraged in order to further demonstrate the power of exorcism as well as increase the power and influence of religious shaman, clergy, etc. Many times exorcism of this "spirit" was a violent act that could potentially kill the subject in the process.
The practice of exorcism unfortunately has made its way into more mainstream and accepted religions such as Christianity, Hinduism, and Islam (as well as many other less known religious beliefs such as Voodoo). Fortunately as people in these areas are educated and medical assistance (like I and other have participated in) is provided; heinous, superstitious acts such as exorcism are kicked to the wayside in favor of more humane treatment of human beings.
Have we not learned enough from history from the Salem Witch Trials, the Inquisition and the like? So don't give me that bullshit superstitious belief that exorcism works. It doesn't. So stop spreading your stupidity.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by John 10:10, posted 01-10-2009 1:44 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Buzsaw, posted 01-10-2009 4:33 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied
 Message 37 by John 10:10, posted 01-10-2009 9:17 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 349 (493753)
01-10-2009 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by ICANT
01-05-2009 6:24 PM


Re: Re Demons
ICant writes:
The evil messengers of the devil. Who was created by God to tempt you and I. So we could make choices in life.
1. Hi brother. I like your responses in this message except for this. If God created the forces of evil to tempt humans, why are Satan and his angels eventually cast into the eternal lake of fire, never ever to re-emerge in order to effect free will/choice for all of the host of the heavens, i.e. God's intelligent creatures existing here and there in the cosmos of the universe.
My thinking is that Satan is not needed to effect free will. Lucifer, the bright and shining angel, whoever he was, evidently once held a high position in God's kingdom but exercised free will to exalt himself in the north parts of the cosmos above Jehovah's throne. No temptation of Satan is cited here and no serpent, etc to tempt Lucifer to rebel against the supreme majesty/designer/creator of the universe, Jehovah.
2. James one verse twelve says that God tempts no man to do evil. So why would he create one to tempt man to do evil?
3. When Jesus was accused of the Jews of being demon possessed, Jesus's response was that a house divided/pitted/engaged against itself would fall. Wouldn't the creation of evil by God go contrary to the kingdom of God, dividing his kingdom against itself?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by ICANT, posted 01-05-2009 6:24 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-10-2009 6:31 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 39 by ICANT, posted 01-11-2009 3:02 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 349 (493758)
01-10-2009 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by DevilsAdvocate
01-10-2009 3:53 PM


DA writes:
So the Bible's chronicling God commanding the annihilation of the Canaanites including men, women, children, babies, animals as well as pillaging their cities and towns is not destruction? Think again.
hi DA. It was indeed destruction, i.e purging of Jehovah's planet Earth of cultures embedded into demonic pagan doctrines contrary to the welfare of the planet at large.
This action by Jehovah was to establish on planet earth, a messianic kingdom nation which would eventually eliminate all wars and evil regimes on the planet. Thus the re-emergence of the nation of Israel to be consummated at the 2nd advent of Jesus Christ/messiah of planet earth.
Furthermore, this action by Jehovah was specifically designated to one relatively tiny area of real estate on the planet and to a designated nation, the nation of Israel. It was not God's mandate to Dark Age Roman Catholic Popes and Bishops, Islamic Jihadists, German Nazis and Stalinists,etc who took it upon themselves to kill, kill, kill for their own evil regimes and demonic ideologies.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-10-2009 3:53 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-10-2009 6:27 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 34 of 349 (493769)
01-10-2009 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by ICANT
01-10-2009 2:52 PM


Re: Re Demons
Straggler writes:
Moral neutrality in the form of indifference?
So you admit there would be no choice?
No. I am suggesting that rather than choosing good or evil the choice could be good or indifference.
Then evil need not actually exist, God could reward the "good" and ultimately just let the indifferent fade into non-existance.
Then none of that nasty hell/satan/evil/hate stuff would be at all necessary?
Just a thought........
Edited by Straggler, : Fix quotes
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by ICANT, posted 01-10-2009 2:52 PM ICANT has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 35 of 349 (493778)
01-10-2009 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Buzsaw
01-10-2009 4:33 PM


hi DA. It was indeed destruction, i.e purging of Jehovah's planet Earth of cultures embedded into demonic pagan doctrines contrary to the welfare of the planet at large.
This action by Jehovah was to establish on planet earth, a messianic kingdom nation which would eventually eliminate all wars and evil regimes on the planet. Thus the re-emergence of the nation of Israel to be consummated at the 2nd advent of Jesus Christ/messiah of planet earth.
Furthermore, this action by Jehovah was specifically designated to one relatively tiny area of real estate on the planet and to a designated nation, the nation of Israel. It was not God's mandate to Dark Age Roman Catholic Popes and Bishops, Islamic Jihadists, German Nazis and Stalinists,etc who took it upon themselves to kill, kill, kill for their own evil regimes and demonic ideologies.
So evidently as long as the destruction, rape, pillaging, infanticide, slavery, etc is localized to one spot on the globe it is ok for God to do the killing and enslavement but it isn't for anyone else. Oh, and BTW what about the global flood in which everything was destroyed men, women, children, babies, animals, etc. that wasn't localized.
LOL, you will justify anything (not even short of outright homicide) and you say that atheists have moral relativity.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Buzsaw, posted 01-10-2009 4:33 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Buzsaw, posted 01-11-2009 1:42 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 36 of 349 (493780)
01-10-2009 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Buzsaw
01-10-2009 4:12 PM


Re: Re Demons
Buzsaw writes:
Lucifer, the bright and shining angel, whoever he was, evidently once held a high position in God's kingdom but exercised free will to exalt himself in the north parts of the cosmos above Jehovah's throne.
Is this north part of the cosmos in which Lucifer reigned, north or south of Syracuse?
Sorry couldn't resist.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Buzsaw, posted 01-10-2009 4:12 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 37 of 349 (493800)
01-10-2009 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by DevilsAdvocate
01-10-2009 3:53 PM


Do you know why they practice exorcism?
I know why Jesus practiced delivering possessed people from the power of satanic demons. These possessed people could not live in a normal state of mind in a civilized society.
The same is still true today. If any person "cannot" resist the power of satanic demons "urging" them to steal, kill and destroy, then I believe they need to be delivered from these satanic demons "urging" them to do these evil acts.
Does this mean I believe all stealing, killing and destroying is caused by satanic demons? No, I don't. Much evil is caused by our own selfish behaviors, and an unwillingness to care for and help our fellowman. I commend you for your willingness to help and serve your fellowman. But do you honestly say that you have never come across any person in all your travels who demonstrated demonic powers? Christian missionaries can testify that they have routinely witnessed demonic powers in their travels, especially in Hati and Africa.
Yes, you can give a few examples of how exorcism was used in a wrong way. But I suggest we go back to examples that occurred in the life of Jesus, and follow His examples when needed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-10-2009 3:53 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-10-2009 11:10 PM John 10:10 has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 38 of 349 (493815)
01-10-2009 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by John 10:10
01-10-2009 9:17 PM


But do you honestly say that you have never come across any person in all your travels who demonstrated demonic powers? Christian missionaries can testify that they have routinely witnessed demonic powers in their travels, especially in Hati and Africa.
I do not automatically relegate this type of behavior (usually encouraged by the local shaman or witch doctor) to some type of influence by some supernatural evil force, no.
Yes, you can give a few examples of how exorcism was used in a wrong way. But I suggest we go back to examples that occurred in the life of Jesus, and follow His examples when needed.
So do you believe that we should exorcise demons in todays modern society? And if so, in what method this would be invoked?

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by John 10:10, posted 01-10-2009 9:17 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by John 10:10, posted 01-11-2009 6:00 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 39 of 349 (493837)
01-11-2009 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Buzsaw
01-10-2009 4:12 PM


Re Demons
Hi Buz,
Buzsaw writes:
1. Hi brother. I like your responses in this message except for this. If God created the forces of evil to tempt humans, why are Satan and his angels eventually cast into the eternal lake of fire, never ever to re-emerge in order to effect free will/choice for all of the host of the heavens, i.e. God's intelligent creatures existing here and there in the cosmos of the universe.
Brother there can be no doubt as to whether God created evil and the only things evil is the devil and his angels.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
This says "I the Lord create evil."
So God created the devil and his angels.
Their function is to tempt man and lead him astray.
Is there any other kind of evil God could have created.
He did say he created evil not the potential for evil.
You mentioned free will.
I don't think the devil and his angels had a choice.
Many think they did as you mention in the next paragraph.
Refering to Isaiah 14 where he is told to take up a proverb against the king of Babylon. Many think this is talking about the devil rather than calling the king a devil.
Or were you thinking of Ezekiel 28 where he was told to take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus? Many think this is about the devil.
When it comes to free will the only one I know of who had that was the first man that was placed on the earth. He was given the opportunity to choose to eat the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil or refrain from doing so.
No one else has ever had or will ever have that choice.
Your free will was limited to the choice of trusting God to save you and give you eternal life. You have no say in the matter of going to the lake of fire. That decision was made for you by the first man.
When you became a child of God's you can choose to obey Him or suffer the consequences just as you did with your earthly father.
Buzsaw writes:
2. James one verse twelve says that God tempts no man to do evil. So why would he create one to tempt man to do evil?
Good question. But why did He create evil in the first place as Straggler continually asks?
If there had been no evil, there would have been no choice. If there had been no choice there would be no you and I.
The first man and woman would be living in the garden eating fruit from all the trees as there would be no tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Buzsaw writes:
3. When Jesus was accused of the Jews of being demon possessed, Jesus's response was that a house divided/pitted/engaged against itself would fall.
That is correct and a fact.
Buzsaw writes:
Wouldn't the creation of evil by God go contrary to the kingdom of God, dividing his kingdom against itself?
God has His kingdom and when He created the devil and his angels he set up a kingdom and put the devil in charge of that kingdom.
Now the devil tried to divide the kingdom of God.
He offered Jesus the kingdom of the world if He would bow down and worship him.
Had Jesus done that the Kingdom of God would have been divided.
As it is right now God has a kingdom and the devil has a kingdom and they are pitted against each other and there is a constant war going on.
One day God will put an end to the war.
Even so come Lord Jesus.
God Bless and keep You and Yours,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Buzsaw, posted 01-10-2009 4:12 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Buzsaw, posted 01-11-2009 2:02 PM ICANT has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 349 (493891)
01-11-2009 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by DevilsAdvocate
01-10-2009 6:27 PM


So evidently as long as the destruction, rape, pillaging, infanticide, slavery, etc is localized to one spot on the globe it is ok for God to do the killing and enslavement but it isn't for anyone else. Oh, and BTW what about the global flood in which everything was destroyed men, women, children, babies, animals, etc. that wasn't localized.
LOL, you will justify anything (not even short of outright homicide) and you say that atheists have moral relativity.
Yes. If Jehovah be god, Jehovah kills. In Luke:12:5 Referring to God, Jesus said, "I will warn you whom you shall fear; fear him who after he has killed, has power to cast into hell, yea, I say unto you; fear him."
Thus the Biblically acclaimed wisest man that ever lived said that the fear of Jehovah is the beginning of wisdom.
Who is the creature who tries to justify the maker/creator/ruler/supreme majesty of the universe who anhilates opposiing cultures and establishes his authority; who destroys those who oppose his supremacy in the universe; rebels, even?
Poor cockroaches in the kitchen; they all had to go in the extermination; the young, the old; poor creatures of nature; the owner of the kitchen dislikes them.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-10-2009 6:27 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 349 (493894)
01-11-2009 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by ICANT
01-11-2009 3:02 AM


Re: Re Demons
ICANT writes:
If God created the forces of evil to tempt humans, why are Satan and his angels eventually cast into the eternal lake of fire, never ever to re-emerge in order to effect free will/choice for all of the host of the heavens, i.e. God's intelligent creatures existing here and there in the cosmos of the universe.
Thanks for your responses, ICANT, but you failed to specifically address the above.
You and others cite references to God creating evil. You, being apprised on linguistics etc surely are aware that the word evil applies to other than pertaining to Satan, especially in the Hebrew, having relatively few words in the vocabulary.
For example, throughout the Bible, references can be cited which use the word evil as in destructive and injurious pertaining to conflict, etc. God brought/created evil upon Israel when they disobeyed him. Dangerous animals are referred to as evil beasts, etc. In Ecclesiastes 5:14, the writer refers to the fishes taken in an evil net.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by ICANT, posted 01-11-2009 3:02 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by ICANT, posted 01-11-2009 5:25 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 42 of 349 (493915)
01-11-2009 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Buzsaw
01-11-2009 2:02 PM


Re Demons
Hi Buz,
I thought this addressed your question.
ICANT writes:
Hi Buz,
Buzsaw writes:
1. Hi brother. I like your responses in this message except for this. If God created the forces of evil to tempt humans, why are Satan and his angels eventually cast into the eternal lake of fire, never ever to re-emerge in order to effect free will/choice for all of the host of the heavens, i.e. God's intelligent creatures existing here and there in the cosmos of the universe.
Brother there can be no doubt as to whether God created evil and the only things evil is the devil and his angels.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
This says "I the Lord create evil."
So God created the devil and his angels.
Their function is to tempt man and lead him astray.
Is there any other kind of evil God could have created.
He did say he created evil not the potential for evil.
Isaiah records God said He created evil.
That is what God said it is not just my opinion that is saying God created evil.
Buzsaw writes:
For example, throughout the Bible, references can be cited which use the word evil as in destructive and injurious pertaining to conflict, etc. God brought/created evil upon Israel when they disobeyed him. Dangerous animals are referred to as evil beasts, etc. In Ecclesiastes 5:14, the writer refers to the fishes taken in an evil net.
But if God had not created evil none of these things you cite would exist.
There would be no evil period.
There would be no death.
Therefore there would be no you and I as the first man and woman would still be in the garden.
God said: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things".
God created evil I can not argue with His Word. I must accept it.
The devil is evil personafied. So are his angels.
I conclude from that.
God created the devil and his angels who were evil.
They were created for a specific purpose.
That purpose was to provide man with a choice.
The devil and his angels were created to spend eternity in the lake of fire.
They have performed their jobs well.
I do not think the devil and his angels had a choice.
I could be wrong and not understand what God was doing.
But I know one thing God created evil whether I understand it or not.
God Bless and Keep You and Yours,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Buzsaw, posted 01-11-2009 2:02 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by caldron68, posted 01-11-2009 10:07 PM ICANT has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 43 of 349 (493918)
01-11-2009 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by DevilsAdvocate
01-10-2009 11:10 PM


So do you believe that we should exorcise demons in todays modern society? And if so, in what method this would be invoked?
The problem with demons is that you don't believe they exist, and I do. Jesus certainly believed they troubled some of the people of His day. When He encountered them in the lives of various people, He cast them out. When Jesus cast them out, the demon possessed people became normal and in the right mind.
Just as the first healing step for an alcoholic or a drug addict is to admit that you are an alcoholic or a drug addict, the same is true for those who are afflicted by demons. Counseling does not generally work well in these situations. Our mental wards are full of people that have not been helped by drugs and years of counseling.
Yes, I'm in favor of following Jesus' example by casting out demons when nothing else man has tried has worked. But I would not recommend anyone try this unless they are a follower of Jesus, and they know they have His authority cast out demons. Otherwise, unbelievers may find themselves overpowered as did the Jewish exorcists of Acts 19.
Blessings

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-10-2009 11:10 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-11-2009 8:20 PM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 46 by onifre, posted 01-11-2009 10:10 PM John 10:10 has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 44 of 349 (493939)
01-11-2009 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by John 10:10
01-11-2009 6:00 PM


Just as the first healing step for an alcoholic or a drug addict is to admit that you are an alcoholic or a drug addict, the same is true for those who are afflicted by demons. Counseling does not generally work well in these situations. Our mental wards are full of people that have not been helped by drugs and years of counseling.
It would be interesting to see some type of case study in which two groups are given separate therapeutic treatments. Let's say 15 people all afflicted with the same condition, say heroine addiction. One group is given professional drug counseling and medicine and the other group of 15 are strictly treated with exorcism by three expert Christian exorcists. Both treatments are administer for 12 months. Then lets compare the two groups.
I have proposed a new topic to discuss exorcism because I believe this to be slightly off topic and needs more space to discuss its validity.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by John 10:10, posted 01-11-2009 6:00 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by John 10:10, posted 01-16-2009 2:40 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
caldron68
Member (Idle past 3841 days)
Posts: 79
From: USA
Joined: 08-26-2007


Message 45 of 349 (493945)
01-11-2009 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by ICANT
01-11-2009 5:25 PM


Re: Re Demons
ICANT writes:
God created the devil and his angels who were evil.
They were created for a specific purpose.
That purpose was to provide man with a choice.
The creation of Satan was not necessary to provide man with a choice between good and evil. As John 10:10 has already pointed out, murder and other evil acts exist without intervention from Satan or his nasty little angels. Free will alone is enough of an excuse for man to do bad things, no devil required. So yes, without Satan there still is evil. It's not just good, good or good.
Given this, we can conclude that Satan was never required to begin with and the fact that you claim that he does exist is evidence that the deck is stacked against man.
It's not enough that man needs to make a choice between belief and non-belief, God is required to inject the devil into the details in order to make things even more difficult.
Cheers,
--Caldron68

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by ICANT, posted 01-11-2009 5:25 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by ICANT, posted 01-13-2009 12:15 PM caldron68 has not replied

  
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