Why did God forgive our sins?

I propose that sinners read the Bible long enough and far enough to convince themselves that they are in need of a Savoir, and then yield themselves to God's saving grace through Jesus our Lord.If sinners aren't convinced they need a Savior and enter into God's salvation, then interpreting what God has to say in the rest of the Bible can be of some temporal value, but has no eternal valve.BlessingsEdited by John 10:10, : deleted word

DA writes:No. The real contradicion is the fellow that stays around defending something he so strongly DISBELIEVES in. Its my guess (interpretation) is that fellows like yourself are not really sure whether the srciptures are true or not and you are hoping against all hope, that they are not. But to be completely sure you feel a need to stick around, spend countless hours and words defending against something you alledgedly dont believe in. Now does that sound rational to you.I dont believe in the lockness monster, Bigfoot or ufo's, but I doubt I am going to spend to much time trying to defend against it. Now I wonder why I would NOT do that, could it be that I really know that such things are not true, my guess is yes.Now tell me again DA why it is you defend against something so strongly, you dont even believe in? Are you sure these things are not true, or are you hoping they are not? My guess is the latter. That would make logical sense.Or is it that you like to cause trouble? DA here is another court of law and a rational way of thinking as you suggest. Take a lesson from the court of Gamaliel tothe Sanhedrin.Acts 5: Sounds logical to me, what say ye?If we Christians are having so much trouble and all of this is a myth, why in the world would you care to any serious degree. Cut the crap and come on home DA.D BertotEdited by Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.

Well you guessed wrong.You have no clue what you are talking about Bertot. Follow the discussion and you will understand why I got involved in the first place instead of make irrelevant, unsubstantiated ad hominum attacks in a discussion you were never involved in.Actually, my entire point, as you can read in my posts, is that the Bible is self-contradictory including the multiple ways in which Christians can interpret the Bible differently and I was defending Cauldrons argument that according to the Bible God would spend numerous more people to hell than to heaven. That is why I spent time on it. In what way was I defending the Bible? I was demonstrating to ICANT that even most Christians would back up Cauldron's claim that according to the Bible (specifically Matthew 7:14) more people would be spending eternity in hell than in heaven.Yet, you spend time on this website defending against the atheism and the theory of evolution which you obviously disagree with. Why are you spending time on that? Um, no. And why are you on this site defending Christianity as being true? If this subconscience desire for Christianity to be right is true of me than by your logic the subconscience desire for atheism to be true should apply to you as well since you are so adamantly opposed to it and you spend a lot of your time attacking it. You can't have both ways. Stop with the psychoanalysis garbage and defend your position, otherwise shut up. I choose the third option, to make trouble .Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

DA writes:Defend what position DA? I beleive I already have. I believe I have demonstrated that for you or any other human to attack Gods doings from a limited human perspective, is complete idiocy and that you have no logical way to proceed. Then you wanted to talk about slavery and I quickly did away with your arguments in that arena demonstrating once again that you have no logical way to proceed in questioning the actions of an omnipotent being based on your subjective nonsense. I then proceeded to demonstrated that you are a part of an organization that does and has involves itself in the very same thing you detest, slavery. Im sorry refresh my memory on which position I did not defend. And notice I am defending an attack against the scriptures. Please show me where I have defended against evolution or atheism?Now you say the Bible is contradictory. You do realize that not agreeing with a passage (Matt 7:12) and showing contradiction are two totally different things correct? You do realize that simply because people can disagree in the passages that this does not constitute contradiction correct? Again, what would the truthfulness of Matt 7:12 have to do with contradiction, since you have no way of knowing what ultimate right and wrong are or are not? You see DA, you cannot even get out of this little troublesome box, yet you proceed with your arrogance as if you have. You havent even began to scratch the surface of your delima. You are in such a hurry to show contradiction, yet you are standing in a big PUDDLE of it and dont even realize it. First get your own house in order then you can proceed to question, judge and condemn God. What sa ye friend? Oh, I think I have more than a clue, to smell a stinky way of proceeding logically. I have been following the discussion. But it has never been my desire to involve myself in a discussion about a passage of scripture, with those that suggest that God is a myth, the Bible is not his word and it is the word of subjective men. Why would I involve myself with someone on a passage of scripture that doesnt even understand what the scriptures have to say in thier entirity on a subject, then after having been demonstrated that the scriptures are consistent in such matters, that same person retreats again to, "well God doesnt exist anyway, so this is all irrelevant". As you can see these are far from, irrelevant, unsubstantiate attacks. Actually any positon you take against Gods doings are a poster child for "irrelevant and unsubstantiated attacks" from a logical standpoint. Remember get you own ducks in a row first, then you can proceed to attack God.
Sorry for the duck comment, I just had to since you are in the navy, ha ha. DA, I am spending time on something I believe in, God. You are spending time defending against something you dont even believe in God and the scriptures as his word. Why bother if they are not real. In other words Im not defending against atheism but defending a thing which I clearly believe exists. Atheism is simply a concept or idea, if it were true then it still would not be a thing to believe in or defend against, because it doesnt exist, even if it were true. In other words there is NOTHING to defend. Do you see the difference? Now why does this not surprise me. And this has pretty much been my evaluation from the outset. Whichh is it, you want to debate or cause trouble or both.P.S. Thanks for being such a good HELPER to the Air Force, we appreciate your minimal support on the high seas. Just busting your chops DA. Thanks for your comments.D BertotEdited by Bertot, : No reason given.

Bertot, again you fail to see what the argument was about Bertot. Why is it I feel you have some sort of personal vendetta against me? What with all the personal attacks and all. BTW, I am joking.So let's analyze this shall we? It is apparantly ok, for you to use scientist's "quotes" and "apparant" inconsistencies against the the atheist's worldview (yes, I know atheists/agnostics/desits do not have one all-inclusiver worldview but for sake of argument let us pretend this to be true) but it is not ok for me to show inconsistencies in the Bible or your faith in the God of the Bible?If you can't handle my arguments, fine, I could care less. My whole point was that you and your friends think you are the only ones that know anything about religion or the Bible when many of us atheists, agnostics and deists have also had much religious experience and education but through logic, reason and study of the scientific evidence have determined the Christian faith to be on par with any other religious dogma out there, lacking moral and logical consistency and scientific support. I guess I will try to stick to the non-Biblical, science topics and let you and your religious friends banter over religious dogma and whose interpretation of the scripture is correct from now on. LOL, whatever floats your boat dude. And who made you the lord and judge of logical debate? Your a hoot. That was an attempt at humor which obviously failed on you. I debate on here to help shed light on the inconsistencies of both your belief as well as the book you believe in. I also use my intellect, logic and reason to filter through the bullshit and actually gain some pretty good useful debate tips, scientific reasoning and evidence and the like from people like Cavediver, Granny Magda, Brian, Straggler, Taz and others intelligent, scientifically minded people on here.Sounds like I touched a nerve with you and you can't handle this truth so I will cease this useless banter with you Bertot. Have a nice, Christian life.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

You fail to see he difference between logical deduction and personal attacks. By the way thats very funny. First of ALL where did I quote a scientist to support my view points. Secondly, if you consider these to be inconsistencies, you need to demonstrate that you are consistent logically and morally, you cant.Thirdly its not that you try to show inconsistencies only its that you sarcastically attack Gods ways of doing things and deem him as evil. You personal attacks on me are of no consequence, but the ones on God should atleast b e logicaal and consistent. When you present one I havent addressed, please let me know. No no, please dont dismiss yourself from this forum, there are others here that are willing to discuss these issues with you, specifically scripture. Mine is one opinion, dont get upset, please. Well it certainly wouldnt be Percy, PaulK, modulous, Rrhavin or Rrhain, they think that most of my stuff is a confuded mess. Why sorry worthless sacks of, just kidding ofcourse.I have a degree from the 'Lord and master of logical debate' university in Neverland. I obtained my degree from the mail in degree program. You send them 20 dollars and they send ypu a certificate. No trust me its nothing I havent heard or delt with before"Truth" from a completely subjective person and positon. No wonder you wish to discontinue discussion. Thank you I intend to.D BertotEdited by Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.

Ha, ha. I am almost laughing. Ok, and you are not being sarcastic when you attack my worldview? LOL. I have shown where the Bible is inconsistent in its moral stance i.e. the moral laws of the OT vice what Christians consider moral in todays modern society, what is illogical and inconsistent about that?You just don't like when I attack your belief system. Ok, get over it. Do your own work, I am not here to address your own conundrums. I would have to agree. LOL, that is funny. I need to send of for that degree.BTW, we should stop the mental sparring before Admin kicks us of into after-school detention.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

What if they do just that and come to the conclusion, based on an enormous amount of physical evidence, that the Bible does not contain the word of any God and that they do not need any kind of salvation, what then...?Does God punish them for this self determined conclusion...? What you seem to be implying here is that God has placed all of the weight on my ability to read and interpret texts that have been translated and whos origins are unfound. Seems like a very thin rope that God has hung my eternal salvation on.You are saying that I need to convince myself; the weight of the entire thing lies on my ability to interpret texts. So, then, interpretations of the scriptures are of value, so again, who sets the marker on HOW to interpret?You...? Religious figures...? Your parents...? or, My own personal ability to interpret...?

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"All great truths begin as blasphemies""I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

You could've figured this one out with simple logic, onifre.If you read the Bible and are not convinced, then you used the wrong interpretation.If you read the Bible and are convinced, then you used the right one

The failure to see this very simple logic is a sign of my inadequacies as a human being. God forgive me...Thank you, catholic sci, for sheding light on my vailed spiritual eye.

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"All great truths begin as blasphemies""I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

Try using that logic when you stand before the judgment seat of Christ. God has hung your eternal salvation on a cross 2000 years ago. The starting place is to open and honest with God and ask Him to help you with your unbelief. He won't go against your will, but He does make sinners He is drawing to Himself willing to repent. Any person can read the Bible and come to some understanding of the Bible as a historical book. But interpretating the full spiritual message of God's love letter Bible is reserved for His children who have been born into His family.Blessings

What you seem to be misunderstanding is that it is the same logic that you claim to have used, we just came to different conclusions. I was not there so I must trust those who were there that they documented everything as it went down. Yet the scriptures don't agree on many accounts and the translations have changed many of the original texts, actually, the original texts don't exist.So, I must read and interpret the texts that have been left behind. That is my only way to God. By reading 2000 year old scriptures. God has hung my salvation on my ability to interpret these old texts, and, if I get it wrong, I suffer for eternity. Ok, now you are not making sense. If it is reserved for His children then a non-believer can NEVER become a believer because he will never interpret it right. There are people who have never read the Bible but would like to become believers. However, if they pick up the Bible to read it they can't interpret it properly because they are not part of the club yet, but, they can't become part of the club until they read the Bible and see if it is the true word of God or just another one of the many mythological stories we have.Your almost say that you have to believe God exists first, which is fine, but why does it have to be the God of the Christians? Thats where the Bible would steps in to further explain things, right? But there's a problem, you can't read it properly until you believe it whole heartedly. This is circular bullshit.At least admit that you belive what is written in the Bible, not because you have read it and determined it to be true, but simply because you believe in the Christian God and would accept anything that the Bible says regardless of how false it may be.

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"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

Onfire I applaud you. You hit the nail on the head by describing the tendancy for Christian fundamentalist's (as well as other religious fundamentalists) to use circular reasoning in justifying their beliefs and insisting that if you don't follow their blind faith that we will spend eternity in eternal torment in hell.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

Thanks DA, with your help we've been able to corner them and exposed their bs circular reasoning.We continue to fight the good fight - lol.I maybe in Virginia soon for a show, if I am I will let you know so you can come out. myspacefacebookBTW, it's Onifre, not, Onfire. Don't worry every teacher in school made the same mistake...every single one. - Oni

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"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

Did you understand everything about your "onifre" family the moment you were born into this world? I don't think so! You were basically a loud noise on one end and a mess on the other end. As you grew from babyhood to manhood, you learned what what being a member of the "onifre" family was all about, and how respect, love and honor your parents.The same thing is true for those who are born into God's family (John 1:12-13). But one must first be born into God's family as Jesus declared in John 3:3-7 before one can see and understand the kingdom of God (Jesus' words, not mine). If Christianity is nothing but a belief system, then it's no better than any other belief system man may offer.I believe what is written in the Bible is true because when I obeyed the truth of Acts 2:38, the same thing happened to me as Jesus promised in John 14, Blessings