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Author Topic:   Scientific vs Creationist Frauds and Hoaxes
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 2159 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 31 of 220 (494830)
01-19-2009 1:50 AM


Two-faced dating
On the subject of dating, should we nominate Snelling for presenting RC dating articles while wearing his geologist hat, and knocking the science while hunkering down with his creo buddies?
    
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8842
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 32 of 220 (494831)
01-19-2009 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Nighttrain
01-19-2009 1:46 AM


Re: Ossuary Hoax
True, Ned, but seeing that creationists with media access made a fuss about the discovery of the ossuary (ossuaries?)along the lines of it validating Jesus and the Bible, I think it qualifies for a fraud. Wasn`t it archaeologists who exposed the dodgy inscription, leading to the arrest of the forger?

All that is true, but being fooled (even when you want to be) doesn't make you a liar.

Continuing to be "fooled" after the hoax is exposed is starting to be dishonest though.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Nighttrain, posted 01-19-2009 1:46 AM Nighttrain has not yet responded

  
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 38 days)
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 33 of 220 (494838)
01-19-2009 4:59 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Nighttrain
01-19-2009 1:46 AM


Re: Ossuary Hoax
Regarding the ossuary, the case against the dealers appears to be falling apart (Ossuary hoax case may collapse):

October 30, 2008 - The high-profile trial of two Israeli antiquities experts accused of faking a burial box containing the remains of Jesus' brother and other priceless artifacts faced a humiliating collapse Wednesday after a Jerusalem judge advised the prosecution to consider dropping the proceedings after more than three years in court.

"After all the evidence we have heard, including the testimony of the prime defendant, is the picture still the same as the one you had when he was charged?" District Court Judge Aharon Farkash pointedly asked public prosecutor, Adi Damti. "Not every case ends in the way you think it will when it starts. Maybe we can save ourselves the rest."

...

But under cross-examination by defense attorneys, many experts recanted some of their findings. Judge Farkash's comments, which were excluded from trial transcripts but said in open court, came after more than 80 witnesses and 10,000 pages of testimony including evidence and cross-examination of Golan and leading archaeologists and scientists from around the world.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Nighttrain, posted 01-19-2009 1:46 AM Nighttrain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Nighttrain, posted 01-19-2009 8:27 PM Rrhain has responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19871
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 34 of 220 (494852)
01-19-2009 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by fallacycop
01-18-2009 2:00 AM


Standards of Truth
Hey fallacycop

A lie requires knowledge (of the fact that you are uttering a falsehoods) and intent (to deceive).

This, of course, lets off all the deluded and ignorant creationists that think they are passing on the truth and don't know the facts or the reality.

It comes down to the Dawkins Dilemma: anyone who doesn't understand is either to stupid, ignorant, malicious, or insane, ... to which I add deluded.

The fraud and hoax and lies issue really lies in the area of malicious: intentionally promoting false information in order to mislead and delude the gullible wanna-believers, and make money fame etc in the process.

The people who are deluded and mislead, and who then regurgitate the fraud\hoax\lies, are really only guilty of not checking the facts or not knowing how to check the facts against reality.

Take "someonewhocares", who came to this forum full of pride in having put together a website for the ->>TRUTH<<-, and who had a number of falsehoods included in his essay, including Lucy's Knee, and issues with the age of the earth. He has made some very minor "corrections" to his essay since visiting here (see what he did with Lucy's Knee), but they are not significant when you see he still includes Piltdown Man, and erroneous information on the upright posture of australopithicus.

For an essay that pretends to be highly concerned with the ->>TRUTH<<-, it includes a number of easy to spot falsehoods.

This kid is not stupid, nor ignorant, he doesn't appear to be malicious, but he is curiously unable to ascertain the truth of some things, because of confirmation bias, cognitive dissonance, and delusion: he thinks he is right, and that eventually the evidence will back him up.

He, rather obviously, has only one test for ->>TRUTH<<-, and that is his belief.

To the extent that he knowingly and intentionally includes information in his essay, without knowing\understanding that it is false, means it is a fraud, full of falsehoods. This is typical of most creationist sites that just regurgitate false information: they believe it is true (or will be).

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by fallacycop, posted 01-18-2009 2:00 AM fallacycop has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Nighttrain, posted 01-19-2009 8:32 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 2159 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 35 of 220 (494903)
01-19-2009 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Rrhain
01-19-2009 4:59 AM


Re: Ossuary Hoax
Gulp, Rrhain, if the case is dropped, will this mean that the ossuary is really, really the resting place of James? Hallelujah, this proves Jesus (or at least James) really, really existed.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Rrhain, posted 01-19-2009 4:59 AM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Rrhain, posted 01-20-2009 2:27 AM Nighttrain has not yet responded

    
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 2159 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 36 of 220 (494905)
01-19-2009 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by RAZD
01-19-2009 9:47 AM


Re: Standards of Truth
Hi, Razd, another reason why I`m in favour of posterior lobotomies. Obviously, frontals aren`t working.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by RAZD, posted 01-19-2009 9:47 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

    
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 37 of 220 (494906)
01-19-2009 8:35 PM


Split off a topic please
I think the ossuary could take over this more general thread.

Rather than discuss it here please raise a new topic.


Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by RAZD, posted 01-19-2009 8:56 PM AdminNosy has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19871
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 38 of 220 (494907)
01-19-2009 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by AdminNosy
01-19-2009 8:35 PM


Existing James Ossuary Thread
See Jesus Tomb Found

Enjoy.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by AdminNosy, posted 01-19-2009 8:35 PM AdminNosy has not yet responded

  
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 38 days)
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 39 of 220 (494915)
01-20-2009 2:27 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Nighttrain
01-19-2009 8:27 PM


Nighttrain responds to me:

quote:
Gulp, Rrhain, if the case is dropped, will this mean that the ossuary is really, really the resting place of James?

Personally? I don't think questions of archaeological authenticity are answered in court. I think they are answered by archaeological scrutiny. That's how all the various hoaxes have ever been discovered.

Why did it take Piltdown man so long to be shown to be a fraud? Because it wasn't allowed to be examined. The only way to find hoaxes and uncover frauds is to open up the results to review.

Look what happened with "cold fusion." Lots of claims, but the plans for the apparatus were held back, kept only partial, etc., etc. As a result, nobody could ever reproduce the results and, sure enough, it was fraud.

The hoax from China regarding early bird fossils was found to be a hoax because the evidence was opened up to scrutiny.

Note, not legal scrutiny but scientific scrutiny. Courts are not designed to find scientific results for they aren't equipped to do so. When the judge goes back to consider the case or the jury goes out to deliberate, it isn't like they're going to be performing their own tests upon things. Instead, they request "expert opinion" to inform them and make a judgement based upon how good they think those opinions are.

Edited by Rrhain, : Trying to get back to topic


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Nighttrain, posted 01-19-2009 8:27 PM Nighttrain has not yet responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19871
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 40 of 220 (496032)
01-25-2009 9:15 PM


New Hoax\Fraud site just in ... Creation Lies for Children
See A Creation Website For Children

This link was proudly provided by the author:

garbage in garbage out website

Setting up a site specifically to feed false information to children is pretty despicable in my opinion.

To be proud of it, is just evidence of delusion.

Enjoy.

Edited by RAZD, : chain

Edited by RAZD, : ...

Edited by RAZD, : e


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19871
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 41 of 220 (512741)
06-20-2009 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
01-11-2009 9:40 AM


bump for Doubletime
For Doubletime - to see if he can add any new ones.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 01-11-2009 9:40 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19871
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 42 of 220 (512771)
06-20-2009 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
01-11-2009 9:40 AM


Jack Chick - the creationist hoax in comic book form
Another creationist hoaxster to add to the list:

For Doubletime,

I just checked on another of your pet hoaxes:

Along with the new guinnea man that was said to be one of our ancestors that lived today but later on turn out to belong to a modern race. ( Another HOAX)

I did a google on "new guinea man fossil" and once again there were few hits that were relevant:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/bigdaddy.html

quote:
"Big Daddy?" is a small anti-evolution comic book tract by evangelist Jack Chick.
...
This is a typical rehashing of the usual creationist chestnuts. It ignores almost all the the real evidence, misrepresents the real fossils that are discussed (Heidelberg Man, Peking Man, Neandertal Man), of course mentions Nebraska Man and Piltdown Man, and finally lists some fossils that have never been claimed to be anything but Homo sapiens (New Guinea Man, Cro-Magnon Man)
...
The real oddity in Chick's list is "New Guinea Man". As far as I know, no one has ever proposed this as any sort of transitional form. It presumably refers to fragments of a fossil modern human skull thought to be about 5000 years old found at Aitape (now Eitape) about 60 years ago. This is the only human fossil ever found in New Guinea, and is very obscure; I have never seen it even mentioned in any mainstream scientific or popular literature on human origins. The only place (other than Big Daddy) I have ever seen it referred to is a 1961 book by Canadian creationist Evan Shute, Flaws in the Theory of Evolution. Shute merely mentions the existence of this fossil in a list of many other fossils and does not discuss it individually, so Chick may have found out about this fossil from another unknown source.

This little list has been widely copied. If you see a reference to New Guinea Man, or read that Heidelberg Man was "built from a jaw bone that was conceded by many to be quite human" or that Peking Man is "supposedly 500,000 years old, but all evidence has disappeared", you'll know it was cribbed from this little booklet.


So there you are: this is a hoax hoax - it never was misrepresented by science, but is a creationist fabrication from head to toe.

And not just any creationist fabrication but a Jack Chick fabrication ...

From Catholic Answers
http://www.catholic.com/library/sr_chick_tracts_p1.asp

quote:
Chick Tracts
Their Origin and Refutation

The Nightmare World of Jack T. Chick

You’ve seen them.

Perhaps left in a phone booth, Laundromat, or other public place. Maybe a Fundamentalist coworker or a street evangelist gave one to you. Perhaps a child gave one to your child at school. They have titles such as Are Roman Catholics Christian?, The Death Cookie, and Why Is Mary Crying? They are Chick tracts—tiny cartoon booklets produced by Jack T. Chick ("J.T.C.") and his publishing house, Chick Publications.

You’ve seen them . . . but have you read one? Do so, and you step into the nightmarish world of Jack T. Chick.

In this world, few things are as they appear. It is a world of shadow and intrigue, a world of paranoia and conspiracy theories, a world where demons haunt people sincerely trying to follow God, and the Catholic faith is the devil’s greatest plot against mankind.

Here are just a few things you will "learn" if you start reading Chick tracts and comic books:


  • The Catholic Church keeps "the name of every Protestant church member in the world" in a "big computer" in the Vatican for use in future persecutions.[1]

  • But the conspiracy is much broader than this, and it has been going on for a very long time. In the sixth century, for instance, Catholic leaders manipulated the Arabian tribesman Mohammed into creating the religion of Islam to use as a weapon against the Jews and to conquer Jerusalem for the pope.[2]

  • The Jesuits instigated the American Civil War, supporting the Confederate cause and seeking to undermine the Union. When they failed, they arranged the assassination of Abraham Lincoln.[3] Later, they formed the Ku Klux Klan.[4]

  • "Jesuits worked closely with Marx, Engels, Trotsky, Lenin, and Stalin" to create Communism, and it was "believed that soon . . . Communism would rise up as the new strong daughter of the Vatican."[5] It was Rome that instigated the Bolshevik Revolution and the murder of the czar’s family.[6] The Communist "liberation theology" movement also is a Vatican plot.[7]

  • The Nazi Holocaust of the 1940s was a Vatican-controlled attempt to exterminate Jews and heretics.[8] Further, "Hitler, Mussolini, and Franco were backed by the Vatican for the purpose of setting up a one-world government to usher in the ‘Millennial Kingdom’ under Pope Pius XII."[9]

  • The Vatican conspiracy is so extensive that, through the Jesuits, Rome controls the Illuminati, the Council on Foreign Relations, international bankers, the Mafia, the Club of Rome, the Masons, and the New Age movement.[10]

  • The Jesuits created the Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormonism, Unity, Christian Science, and other religious groups.[11]

  • "Pope John Paul II has been a good Communist for many years"[12] and engineered a phony assassination attempt against himself in 1981 to shame Islam into warming relations with the Vatican, since the would-be killer was a Muslim.[13]

Tracts are only one of the ways Chick spreads his messages of hate and paranoia. His website (www.chick.com) lists large-size comic books, posters, booklets, books, videos, and DVDs for sale. Still, it is the tracts for which he is most famous. According to Chick Publications, more than 500 million of them have been distributed.


Notice that this is not an "evolutionist" response to the quackery of Jack Chick, but it comes from the Catholic Church.

Jack Chick is a hoax, anything he says is most likely either a total fabrication, an outright lie, or an absurd falsehood.

His "new guinea man" is but one example of his false hoaxes.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 01-11-2009 9:40 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19871
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 43 of 220 (518244)
08-04-2009 5:20 PM


Add "the stones of ICA" to the creationist fraud list
This is contributed by wirrkalaj in Message 73 on 101 evidences for a young age...

The 'stones of Ica'

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH710_1.html

quote:
The stones are almost certainly modern, created by local villagers to sell to gullible tourists. Two peasants from Callango, Basilio Uchuya and his wife, Irma Gutierrez de Aparcana, have admitted to carving the stones they sold to Cabrera, basing their designs on illustrations from comic books, school books, and magazines (Polidoro 2002).

The Ica stones reputedly give evidence for a highly advanced, very ancient civilization, but no other trace of such a civilization exists. (The Nazca drawings are nearby, but they do not depict any dinosaurs or evidence for advanced technology.)


An admitted fraud, which in science would be sufficient evidence to discard them as evidence of anything, just as Piltdown man was discarded when scientists demonstrated that it was a fraud.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by greentwiga, posted 08-05-2009 1:02 AM RAZD has responded

  
greentwiga
Member (Idle past 1593 days)
Posts: 213
From: Santa
Joined: 06-05-2009


Message 44 of 220 (518289)
08-05-2009 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by RAZD
08-04-2009 5:20 PM


Re: Add "the stones of ICA" to the creationist fraud list
I don't know if anyone has mentioned this hoax that scientists perpetuated on Christians (quite effectively, I might add.)

http://englishatheist.org/indexc.shtml

This is about the missing day and hours mentioned in the OT.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 46 by Coragyps, posted 08-05-2009 6:28 AM greentwiga has not yet responded
 Message 47 by caffeine, posted 08-05-2009 6:38 AM greentwiga has not yet responded
 Message 48 by RAZD, posted 08-09-2009 7:17 PM greentwiga has responded

    
greentwiga
Member (Idle past 1593 days)
Posts: 213
From: Santa
Joined: 06-05-2009


Message 45 of 220 (518290)
08-05-2009 1:05 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by greentwiga
08-05-2009 1:02 AM


Re: Add "the stones of ICA" to the creationist fraud list
Yes, there is some argument that Christians perpetuated it on themselves.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by greentwiga, posted 08-05-2009 1:02 AM greentwiga has not yet responded

    
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