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Author Topic:   The bigotry of atheists
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 16 of 53 (495626)
01-23-2009 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Artemis Entreri
01-23-2009 5:29 PM


LOL this is funny sofar. I have to agree with Catholic Scientist.
bigotry is a paradoxical term. in order to call some one else a bigot you have to be bigotted toward them. and then we are all bigots in that regard, so what is the point of the term if it is all encopmassing to begin with?
Read the posts before you chime in Artemis.
Catholic Scientist called me a bigot because I pointed out that I thought it was stupid that people focus so much time, money and effort (including tax payer money) on inane phenomena such as the image of the virgin mary on a piece of concrete of an underpass.
I was just making the point that if I am a bigot than he is as well for "not respecting my beliefs" (according to CS).
The term "bigot" is thrown around so much here, that it really no longer has any meaning.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Artemis Entreri, posted 01-23-2009 5:29 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-23-2009 5:49 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied
 Message 30 by Artemis Entreri, posted 01-30-2009 3:16 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 53 (495627)
01-23-2009 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by DevilsAdvocate
01-23-2009 5:32 PM


Re: DA's latest thread
I'd bet that most bigots do feel that their bigotry is justified.
LOL, So that means you are bigoted about me being supposedly a bigot? Do you see the slippery slope here?
Yeah, its a bullshit term.
Yeah, its a bullshit term.
So what is your definition of a bigot?
Someone who disagrees with a liberal.
Did you consider that intolerance includes a refusal to simply respect?
You are not respecting my "bigoted" beliefs, so that makes you a bigot as well.
I don't have a problem being a bigot.
I disrespect a lot of people.
And how do you define "respecting someones beliefs"?
Not regarding or treating them with contempt or rudeness.
Without a standard for idiocy, you're no better than the racial and ethnic bigots.
My standard of idiocy is that if your supernatural beliefs interfere with the rights and freedoms of others, than you are in the wrong.
Your own personal/subjective standard is no standard at all.
Stopping to look at a stain on the wall is not interfering with anyone else's rights.
That "traffic control" has to be brought in is a result of the over-crowding. The over-crowding shouldn't be specifically allowed in this or any other case.
But you've refused to respect them, bigot.
And you refuse to respect me, bigot. See where this gets us?
Yeah, its a bullshit term.
Just!? Riiight...
That's why your OP just said:
"Look at this. It is a waste of time, money and effort that could be spent to better use elsewhere."
...and nothing more
So you think this is a good expenditure of our taxpayer money? To protect people while worshiping a piece of concrete? To spend money and time investigate this rubbish on the news? That is a good expenditure of time, money and energy? Really !?! I could find a hundred better ways of expending this time, money and effort.
Non-sequitur.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-23-2009 5:32 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 53 (495628)
01-23-2009 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by DevilsAdvocate
01-23-2009 5:40 PM


Catholic Scientist called me a bigot because I pointed out that I thought it was stupid that people focus so much time, money and effort (including tax payer money) on inane phenomena such as the image of the virgin mary on a piece of concrete of an underpass.
No, I called you a bigot asked if you were a bigot for the bolded sections in these quotes:
quote:
I understand not every religious person believes these things (i.e. images of Mary or Jesus burnt onto toast are some type of divine sign from God) but why does humanity (religious or otherwise) even entertain stupid, ignorant, pseudoscientific bullshit phenomena as such? In addition, why does the media feel like this crap is worthy of being on the headline news?
quote:
This is pure emotional greed bordering on psychosis.
I only called you a bigot one time in Message 13 and that was for your refusal to respect them.
ABE:
And I was going to leave that one time out so I could claim that I never actually did call you a bigot (forseeing that you would claim that I did).
But, I left it in because I thought it was funnier. Oh well, it blew up in my face.
Edited by Catholic Scientist, : see ABE:

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-23-2009 5:40 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-23-2009 6:26 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 19 of 53 (495632)
01-23-2009 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by DevilsAdvocate
01-23-2009 5:32 PM


Re: DA's latest thread
My standard of idiocy is that if your supernatural beliefs interfere with the rights and freedoms of others, than you are in the wrong.
The Catholic Church have been in the wrong many times then haven't they?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-23-2009 5:32 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 20 of 53 (495633)
01-23-2009 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Artemis Entreri
01-23-2009 5:29 PM


Artemis Entreri writes:
quote:
bigotry is a paradoxical term. in order to call some one else a bigot you have to be bigotted toward them.
Ah, yes. The "refusing to accept bigotry is bigotry" response. Usually spoken by a bigot when they realize that they cannot justify why they wish to deny to others that which they demand for themselves.
Is this thread about to be derailed?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Artemis Entreri, posted 01-23-2009 5:29 PM Artemis Entreri has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-23-2009 6:55 PM Rrhain has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 21 of 53 (495641)
01-23-2009 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by New Cat's Eye
01-23-2009 5:49 PM


Tolerance and respect are not the same thing
I stand by my statements. If you want to call me a bigot fine.
Like I said, what you do in the privacy of your own home, I could care less about. But if you divert public money away from really important things like fighting crime, science, medical research, etc than YES I am going to wave the BULLSHIT FLAG!
BTW, do you respect the beliefs of a pedophile? No? I guess you are a bigot then? (I am being sarcastic to prove a point)
Do you respect the beliefs of the Heaven's Gate followers who committed mass suicide or Jim Jones who forced the suicide of all his followers?
How about Mormon fundamentals who believe in polygamy, do you respect there beliefs?
Why should we respect all religious beliefs? Do you respect all political beliefs? I would venture not. What makes religion so special to deserve our respect?
BTW, tolerance and respect are two different things. I tolerate religious belief as guaranteed by the 1st Amendment (as long as they do not encroach on the freedoms and rights of others). But there is nothing that says I have to respect these beliefs.
If a political or any belief is just plain stupid and detrimental to society, we would be foolish to credit this belief with respect wouldn't we? Why is religious belief any different?
BTW, you seem to not respect my opinion but in all seriousness I don't consider you a bigot, just in error.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : Correct spelling

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-23-2009 5:49 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-23-2009 7:22 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 53 (495644)
01-23-2009 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Rrhain
01-23-2009 6:11 PM


Ah, yes. The "refusing to accept bigotry is bigotry" response.
Ah, yes. The "refusing to accept bigotry isn't bigotry" response.
From Message 5
quote:
People reply that being intolerant of intolerance is not really intolerance, but they use their own subjective opinions to determine just what should be allowed to be tolerated, just like the group that they are opposing.
.
Usually spoken by a bigot when they realize that they cannot justify why they wish to deny to others that which they demand for themselves.
Who's talking about denying anyone anything?
Oh, I forgot. You have a your own unique definition of 'bigotry'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Rrhain, posted 01-23-2009 6:11 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Rrhain, posted 01-23-2009 10:03 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 53 (495647)
01-23-2009 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by DevilsAdvocate
01-23-2009 6:26 PM


Re: Tolerance and respect are not the same thing
Tolerance and respect are not the same thing
I stand by my statements. If you want to call me a bigot fine.
Honestly, I don't use the term (unless I'm trying to be funny).
Like I said, its a bullshit term.
BTW, do you respect the beliefs of a pedophile? No? I guess you are a bigot then? (I am being sarcastic to prove a point)
Do you respect the beliefs of the Heaven's Gate followers who committed mass suicide or Jim Jones who forced the suicide of all his followers?
How about Mormon fundamentals who believe in polygamy, do you respect there beliefs?
I refuse to respect those beliefs so, by definition, I am bigoted towards them.
Why should we respect all religious beliefs? Do you respect all political beliefs? I would venture not. What makes religion so special to deserve our respect?
I don't have a problem being a bigot.
BTW, tolerance and respect are two different things. I tolerate religious belief as guaranteed by the 1st Amendment (as long as they do not encroach on the freedoms and rights of others). But there is nothing that says I have to respect these beliefs.
Tolerance includes respect...
If a political or any belief is just plain stupid and detrimental to society, we would be foolish to credit this belief with respect wouldn't we?
Its hypocritical to use a subjective determination to discredit another subjective determination's deserving of respect.
By your own criteria, I should not credit the above belief with respect if I think it is just plain stupid and detrimental to society.

and as a parallel topic:
Most of the religious right do think that this whole "tolerance" movement (I hope you know what I'm referring too) is a detriment to society. By your criteria, they should not be respecting it. The "tolerance movement" (an admittedly bad name but I don't know what to call it at the moment) fights this refusal to accept tolerance while claiming that the refusal to accept intolerance is not intolerance. But both sides can arrive at their position by your criteria above. One side itself doesn't determine what is and is not allowed to be tolerated. Both sides are trying to though.
Shit, I'm outta time.....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-23-2009 6:26 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by NosyNed, posted 01-23-2009 8:15 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied
 Message 26 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-23-2009 10:23 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied
 Message 27 by Granny Magda, posted 01-23-2009 11:03 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 24 of 53 (495660)
01-23-2009 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by New Cat's Eye
01-23-2009 7:22 PM


Tolerance includes respect...
On this I have to disagree strongly.
In fact, if I respect someone or their beliefs then tolerance doesn't enter into it or, perhaps, it is automatic. Of course I can tolerate something I respect.
Tolerance and a lack of bigotry only enters into the issue when I do [i]not/i respect the person or belief.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-23-2009 7:22 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 25 of 53 (495679)
01-23-2009 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by New Cat's Eye
01-23-2009 6:55 PM


Catholic Scientist responds to me:
quote:
From Message 5
Indeed, but that just proves the entire point: When shown you have no way to justify your bigotry, you claim that the other person, refusing to accept your bigotry, is also a bigot. This ignores the fact that bigotry is not mere dislike. It involves the attitude that the object of dislike shouldn't be allowed by others even though you, yourself, are engaging in related activity.
It is a double-standard based upon the attitude of, "I don't like that."
quote:
Who's talking about denying anyone anything?
You were. Or have you forgotten your own words? Message 18
Catholic Scientist writes:
I only called you a bigot one time in Message 13 and that was for your refusal to respect them.
And what was DevilsAdvocate doing? According to you, not granting respect. Well, that's denying to others that which he demands for himself.
Ergo, bigotry.
quote:
Oh, I forgot. You have a your own unique definition of 'bigotry'.
Nobody seemed to have a problem with it except for you and the others who were advocating the denial of rights to others which you were demanding for yourselves. It was demanded that a definition of bigotry be given, that's the one I gave, and you only whined against it because it caught you.
Now, before the thread derails regarding the subject that led to this definition, let's go with the example DevilsAdvocate gave: Those that have found an image on a wall that they deem significant. He's upset of the use of civic funds to manage the people.
Oh? Why? Our society indicates that people have a right to assembly. Why is there a double-standard regarding the reason for the gathering? Why should we allow a group to, say, protest what they feel are the failings of their elected officials but not to admire an image?
Why deny to others that which you demand for yourself?
Now, I'll agree that "bigot" gets thrown around a bit too freely. And its often used in the same way that "fascist" is tossed about: It's a way to derail and deflect. By tossing out such an emotionally laden word, the conversation is derailed to discussing the justification of the claim, not the original topic.
But in this case, we are discussing actual bigotry, therefore we have to have some concept. And to use your insistence that refusal to accept intolerance is also intolerance, then there is no way to make a distinction between bigotry and non-bigotry. And if you really feel that way, perhaps you should bow out because we'll be discussing a distinction you seem to think doesn't exist.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-23-2009 6:55 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-02-2009 12:25 PM Rrhain has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 26 of 53 (495683)
01-23-2009 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by New Cat's Eye
01-23-2009 7:22 PM


Re: Tolerance and respect are not the same thing
Tolerance includes respect...
It can but not necessarily. I can tolerate a certain amount of stupidity from the junior Sailors that work for me (this works in the case of children as well), but I don't respect them when they are being stupid (i.e. being drunk but not necessarily disorderly). Now if they become disorderly when they get drunk than I become intolerant and lay down the law. In either cases I do not respect there actions but in one case I tolerate there behavior and the other I do not tolerate this behavior. Now if they do something good and admirable, I both tolerate and respect there behavior. Does this make sense?
In the case of the religious people worshiping the image of the Virgin Mary on the concrete wall on the underpass, I tolerate there behavior but in no way do I have to respect it. They can worship all they want. I think the behavior is stupid but they have the right to worship anything they want as long as it does not interfere with anyone else's rights and freedoms. However, I do not tolerate or condone using tax payer/public money in any way to support this activity/behavior either through police protection or otherwise.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-23-2009 7:22 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 27 of 53 (495693)
01-23-2009 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by New Cat's Eye
01-23-2009 7:22 PM


Re: Tolerance and respect are not the same thing
I seem to be getting a case of deja vu...
Devils' Advocate writes:
If you want to call me a bigot fine.
Catholic Scientist writes:
Honestly, I don't use the term (unless I'm trying to be funny).
Like I said, its a bullshit term.
*coughs*
Catholic Scientist, addressing Granny Magda, writes:
I never said that, bigot.
Catholic Scientist, addressing Granny Magda, writes:
Your a bigot because you'd rather vilify your opponent than understand them.
You'd rather put words in their mouth than listen to what they are saying.
Sources here and here.
Yup, you certainly are a funny guy. Which bit of that is the joke?
Mutate and Survive

"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-23-2009 7:22 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
monkey boy
Junior Member (Idle past 5449 days)
Posts: 24
Joined: 01-20-2009


Message 28 of 53 (495711)
01-24-2009 2:25 AM


This may not be completely on subject,but, no one has said anything about how the power of a bigot affects things. For instance I am an atheist there are, however very few of us so on a societal level any intolerence of ours is easily negated. There are an awful lot of self proclaimes christians. Their numbers make any intolerence they might practice, extremely dangerous to the target of same. I contend, therefore, that any intolerence of mine is a lesser issue then that practiced by a numerous, powerful group.

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Huntard, posted 01-24-2009 5:04 AM monkey boy has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 29 of 53 (495730)
01-24-2009 5:04 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by monkey boy
01-24-2009 2:25 AM


Hello Monkey Boy, welcome to EvC.
There are very few Atheists? Perhaps where you come from, but over here in Europe, there are quite many. So any intolerance (if any exists) won't be easily negated.
And the reverse goes for Christians here, although they do have a disproportionate influence, if you ask me. (If only because our largest political party are the Christian Democrats). Most atheists also vote for this party, because it's in the political middle, and so appeals to many people from all walks of life.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by monkey boy, posted 01-24-2009 2:25 AM monkey boy has not replied

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4229 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 30 of 53 (496786)
01-30-2009 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by DevilsAdvocate
01-23-2009 5:40 PM


DevilsAdvocate writes:
Read the posts before you chime in Artemis.
I did. Thanks for explaining it but i can read.
A Bigot writes:
I stand by my statements. If you want to call me a bigot fine.
sweet! you are a bigot.
Catholic Bigot writes:
I don't have a problem being a bigot.
me either, bigot.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-23-2009 5:40 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-01-2009 8:01 AM Artemis Entreri has not replied

  
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