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Author Topic:   the source of life
Rahvin
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Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.2


Message 140 of 211 (496308)
01-27-2009 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by New Cat's Eye
01-27-2009 3:23 PM


The logical extension of this is that life has always existed. But we know that is impossible because in the distant past, not even atoms existed. And yet, life exists today. That means that there had to be a first lifeform and that it did not come from a previous lifeform.
It doesn't matter that we haven't observed it yet. We know that it had to have happened.
Indeed, even the direct creation of the first life through "God magic" would qualify as abiogenesis - in Genesis, when God "breathed the breath of life" into his clay Adam, non-living matter became living. Even Creationists have to accept that abiogenesis happened on principle.
The disagreement is over the plausibility of abiogenesis through natural processes versus divine intervention.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-27-2009 3:23 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-27-2009 3:46 PM Rahvin has replied
 Message 144 by ICANT, posted 01-27-2009 6:47 PM Rahvin has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.2


Message 142 of 211 (496318)
01-27-2009 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by New Cat's Eye
01-27-2009 3:46 PM


He seemed to be supporting the Law of Biogenesis without even realizing that.
I don't think he does realize that. I don't think he's thought of it much farther than "I read this site that theres a law saying life only comes from life" without understanding that this violates the Genesis story as much as a naturalistic view.
If humans only come from humans, then how could humans have come from a first human who was made from dust by a deity?

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 Message 141 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-27-2009 3:46 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.2


Message 145 of 211 (496331)
01-27-2009 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by ICANT
01-27-2009 6:47 PM


Re: Re Life
Incorrect.
Life can only come from life.
The English words in Genesis 2:7 seem pretty plain.
God breathed into him the breath of life.
Life had to exist for God to transfer life to the man He had formed.
God is alive.
He has a Mind, Spirit and Body.
So no, God believing creationist do not have to accept that abiogenesis happened period.
God Bless,
ICANT, the Law of Biogenesis being used to claim that abiogenesis is impossible is a specific reference. It does not claim simply that living things create life - it says that maggots come from maggots and not rotting meat, that people come from people and not clay or dust. It's about reproduction, not being manufactured by an external entity.
And as far as God being alive or not...well, it would be awfully tricky to fit God with any scientific definition of life, since we can't observe him. Usually we say that all living things respire, reproduce, respond to stimuli, etc. In no scientific definition of "life" do "mind, spirit, and body" ever come into play. Does God respire, meaning process energy to survive? That would imply he needs air or food or is otherwise dependant on a chemical process for survival - which of course wouldn't fit with any description of God I;ve ever heard of. Does he reproduce? Maybe - possibly one could count Jesus as his direct offspring, but it really doesn't seem to fit since Jesus was human. For the rest of his "children" it seems to be more of a "creation" process and less of a "reproduction." Does he respond to stimuli? Not that anyone currently can demonstrate - studies involving prayer and other tests of God's response to stimuli invariably end as being ineffective, and that no deity responded to the stimuli.
There are other definitions of life (living things are very difficult to define in general - life doesn't seem to be so black/white a distinction), but none of them seem to fit well with a "spiritual" entity. It would seem that "spiritual" life and terrestrial life are apples and oranges, and the two are not the same.
But all of that is besides the point. Genesis specifically states that God Created man from dust, and made that dust live. Nonliving matter became alive. That is abiogenesis, simply not by the naturalistic methods that are typically implied by the word. Life as defined in terrestrial terms did not eternally exist in the Bible - it had to be Created by God. Plants sprung from the ground, fish spawned in the sea...everywhere living things were appearing where nothing living existed before. We could separate it out if you'd like, and call it "Divine Abiogenesis," but we're still talking about life coming from non-life, whether by naturalistic means or via divine machintions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by ICANT, posted 01-27-2009 6:47 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Capt Stormfield, posted 01-27-2009 8:50 PM Rahvin has not replied
 Message 153 by ICANT, posted 01-27-2009 9:25 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
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