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Author Topic:   the source of life
Capt Stormfield
Member (Idle past 455 days)
Posts: 428
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009


Message 166 of 211 (496485)
01-28-2009 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by NosyNed
01-28-2009 9:53 AM


Re: Barry
NosyNed,
Not as well as I would have liked either. I met him at a CSICOP conference at Stanford and ended up being one of the less active (= lazy)founding board members of the B.C. skeptics along with him and Lee and Jim and others.
Capt.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by NosyNed, posted 01-28-2009 9:53 AM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by NosyNed, posted 01-28-2009 1:38 PM Capt Stormfield has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 167 of 211 (496502)
01-28-2009 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Capt Stormfield
01-28-2009 12:41 PM


Re: Barry
Then we may have met. I might still be the (very, very lazy) secretary of BC skeptics.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Capt Stormfield, posted 01-28-2009 12:41 PM Capt Stormfield has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Capt Stormfield, posted 01-28-2009 2:13 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
Capt Stormfield
Member (Idle past 455 days)
Posts: 428
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009


Message 168 of 211 (496506)
01-28-2009 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by NosyNed
01-28-2009 1:38 PM


Re: Barry
Then we may have met.
Almost certainly. But hey, enough of Old Home Week, I can smell the sulfurous stench of moderation approaching....
Capt. KP

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by NosyNed, posted 01-28-2009 1:38 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 169 of 211 (496517)
01-28-2009 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Capt Stormfield
01-27-2009 10:21 PM


Re Life
Hi Capt,
Capt Stormfield writes:
That depends what you mean by "on their own".
Like not attached to a living human body.
OR,
A machine designed to keep them alive.
In other words if you cut the heart out of a living human being and laid it on a table how long would the cells be alive?
Capt Stormfield writes:
Do you have any information to offer on the nature of the life that you believe God breathed into the hardware portion of the first man?
The central processing unit called the mind.
Capt Stormfield writes:
Say you could do a brain transplant.
But you can't.
But it does not matter what body the mind and the spirit occupy they stay the same.
The body including your brain and all the plumbing in the body will die and decompose.
The mind and the Spirit are eternal and will never die.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Capt Stormfield, posted 01-27-2009 10:21 PM Capt Stormfield has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Straggler, posted 01-28-2009 4:55 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 173 by Capt Stormfield, posted 01-28-2009 9:12 PM ICANT has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 170 of 211 (496518)
01-28-2009 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by ICANT
01-28-2009 4:40 PM


Re: Re Life
Capt writes:
Do you have any information to offer on the nature of the life that you believe God breathed into the hardware portion of the first man?
The central processing unit called the mind.
Does all life have a "mind"?
I am intrigued by this definition of life that you claim. What is it that defines something as "alive"?
How can we establish definitively that which has been touched by God's breath and that which has not? What is alive and what is not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by ICANT, posted 01-28-2009 4:40 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by ICANT, posted 01-28-2009 5:22 PM Straggler has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 171 of 211 (496521)
01-28-2009 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Straggler
01-28-2009 4:55 PM


Re Life
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
Does all life have a "mind"?
I don't find where God breathed the breath of life into anything other than the first man which was the first life form.
This event only happened one time.
He does not say how He imparted life to anything else.
He did cause life forms to exist. Plants, animals, fowl and fish, but He does not give the details.
So you don't mind if I don't speculate do you?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Straggler, posted 01-28-2009 4:55 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Straggler, posted 01-28-2009 5:27 PM ICANT has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 172 of 211 (496522)
01-28-2009 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by ICANT
01-28-2009 5:22 PM


Re: Re Life
I don't find where God breathed the breath of life into anything other than the first man which was the first life form.
This event only happened one time.
He does not say how He imparted life to anything else.
He did cause life forms to exist. Plants, animals, fowl and fish, but He does not give the details.
So you don't mind if I don't speculate do you?
OK. Don't speculate. Let's take the biblical account absolutely literally.
By this definition it would seem that man is the only form of life.
No?
If the bible does not say so then on what grounds do you conclude that bacteria, or indeed any other forms of life not specifically described as such in the bible, are actually alive?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by ICANT, posted 01-28-2009 5:22 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by ICANT, posted 01-28-2009 10:57 PM Straggler has replied

  
Capt Stormfield
Member (Idle past 455 days)
Posts: 428
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009


Message 173 of 211 (496532)
01-28-2009 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by ICANT
01-28-2009 4:40 PM


Re: Re Life
Like not attached to a living human body.
OR,
A machine designed to keep them alive.
In other words if you cut the heart out of a living human being and laid it on a table how long would the cells be alive?
Not very long. That's because it is only a portion of the whole machine. An engine removed from its fuel supply will not run long either. That does not imply that the car it came from has a special spiritual essence of some kind, only that it is missing some parts that are integral to its mechanical function.
The central processing unit called the mind.
To expand a bit on Straggler's question, is it fair to say that you are suggesting that only humans have a mind? If this is the case, what do you call the property of the chimp brain that has emotions, makes plans, and so on? How about dogs? Trained rats? I see a continuum of species that use the same basic hardware, and that show a demonstrable connection between the physical brain and their consciousness. What is your evidence that the human brain has something extra that is not a property of the chemical activity taking place. Remember, please, that there is a great deal of research showing the connection between physical stimulation of the brain and the creation of experience - ie. smells, tastes, emotions, memories, etc.
But you can't.
But it does not matter what body the mind and the spirit occupy they stay the same.
The body including your brain and all the plumbing in the body will die and decompose.
The mind and the Spirit are eternal and will never die.
The can't part is just a matter of us developing a bit better technology in the plumbing and electrical department, isn't it? Or do you assign a special role to the brain vis the heart or liver? You can take away any part of the body (pending the right surgical techniques) and the same person is still there, right? But do you think something special happens if you ashcan the brain and keep the body alive without it? Or put someone else's in? If yes, then what do you think it is that's special about the brain that makes it the home of the mind or spirit?
Capt.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by ICANT, posted 01-28-2009 4:40 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by ICANT, posted 01-28-2009 10:43 PM Capt Stormfield has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 174 of 211 (496540)
01-28-2009 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Capt Stormfield
01-28-2009 9:12 PM


Re Life
Hi Capt,
Capt Stormfield writes:
To expand a bit on Straggler's question, is it fair to say that you are suggesting that only humans have a mind?
Actually I was suggesting that only humans had a mind and spirit.
I guess I misunderstood you as I thought you were asking what God breathed into man. But you was actually asking what God inserted in the hardware and specifically the brain of man.
The mind is not part of the brain just as the spirit is not part of the mind. The brain is a part of the body, and all three make a man.
That was the reason I made the statement: "But it does not matter what body the mind and the spirit occupy they stay the same."
Capt Stormfield writes:
What is your evidence that the human brain has something extra that is not a property of the chemical activity taking place.
I did not suggest that the human brain had a mind or spirit.
The human brain is the center of the human nervous system and is the most complex organ in any creature on earth. The brain stores information and programs. But when a person dies the brain ceases to function just like any other part of the body.
But the breath of life does not cease to function. The mind and spirit will live forever and when the resurrection happens they will have an eternal body.
Capt Stormfield writes:
The can't part is just a matter of us developing a bit better technology in the plumbing and electrical department, isn't it?
There are those who know a lot more about the human body than I do that say it is impossible. But maybe not.
Capt Stormfield writes:
Or do you assign a special role to the brain vis the heart or liver?
The brain is one organ that has a specific job to do and does very well until it is altered by drugs, accidents or disease.
Capt Stormfield writes:
If yes, then what do you think it is that's special about the brain that makes it the home of the mind or spirit?
The brain is not the home of the mind and spirit.
The mind and the spirit coexist with the body.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Capt Stormfield, posted 01-28-2009 9:12 PM Capt Stormfield has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by Capt Stormfield, posted 01-29-2009 9:19 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 175 of 211 (496543)
01-28-2009 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Straggler
01-28-2009 5:27 PM


Re Life
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
OK. Don't speculate. Let's take the biblical account absolutely literally.
All plants were made to grow out of the ground.
Every living creature was formed out of the ground.
If it is alive it was formed.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Straggler, posted 01-28-2009 5:27 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by bluescat48, posted 01-28-2009 11:34 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 178 by Straggler, posted 01-29-2009 11:42 AM ICANT has replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 176 of 211 (496545)
01-28-2009 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by ICANT
01-28-2009 10:57 PM


Re: Re Life
Every living creature was formed out of the ground.
So then why isn't the chemical structure of creatures similar to the chemical structure of the ground. The "ground is over 90% Oxygen, Silicon, Aluminum & Iron, whereas in "creatures" only oxygen of the above 4 elements is a major element. Most of the rest is Carbon, Nitrogen & Hydrogen with lessor amounts of Calcium, Phosphorous, Sodium & Potassium with several other trace elements thus nothing like the ground.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by ICANT, posted 01-28-2009 10:57 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by ICANT, posted 01-30-2009 7:21 PM bluescat48 has replied

  
Capt Stormfield
Member (Idle past 455 days)
Posts: 428
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009


Message 177 of 211 (496604)
01-29-2009 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by ICANT
01-28-2009 10:43 PM


Re: Re Life
Interesting.
So if we transplanted a different brain into a body we could get a congregation consisting of one person's brain and someone else's mind and spirit? What would they think? Do thoughts reside in the brain or in the mind? If they are in the mind, how do the two interface? And why would you need a brain in the first place?
I gather you are suggesting that other animals do have a mind, if not a spirit. Is it something that had to added to the "dust" (ie. the brain) to make it work in the same way that man required "breath"? When did that happen?
What exactly was man's brain doing before God added these invisible components? If they were taken away, would it still work? Could it function at the level of reflex (like tapping the front of your knee) but not at the level of thinking? I'm still a tiny bit unclear as to just what the brain was doing before the invisible stuff was added.
Also, could you draw me a map of Narnia?
Capt.
Edited by Capt Stormfield, : typo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by ICANT, posted 01-28-2009 10:43 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by ICANT, posted 01-30-2009 9:11 PM Capt Stormfield has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 178 of 211 (496621)
01-29-2009 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by ICANT
01-28-2009 10:57 PM


Re: Re Life
I don't find where God breathed the breath of life into anything other than the first man which was the first life form.
This event only happened one time.
He does not say how He imparted life to anything else.
He did cause life forms to exist. Plants, animals, fowl and fish, but He does not give the details.
So you don't mind if I don't speculate do you?
Straggler writes:
OK. Don't speculate. Let's take the biblical account absolutely literally.
By this definition it would seem that man is the only form of life.
No?
If the bible does not say so then on what grounds do you conclude that bacteria, or indeed any other forms of life not specifically described as such in the bible, are actually alive?
All plants were made to grow out of the ground.
Every living creature was formed out of the ground.
If it is alive it was formed.
So is it God's breath or being "formed" that defines what is alive? You seem to be changing your story to suit your argument.
Is man formed?
Has a plant had the breath of life breathed into it? Has a fish?
Is a mushroom alive?
Is coral alive?
Is bacteria alive?
On what basis do you make your answers?
From a biblical point of view how do we determine what is alive and what is not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by ICANT, posted 01-28-2009 10:57 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by ICANT, posted 01-30-2009 8:14 PM Straggler has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 179 of 211 (496814)
01-30-2009 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by bluescat48
01-28-2009 11:34 PM


Re Life
Hi cat,
Bluescat48 writes:
So then why isn't the chemical structure of creatures similar to the chemical structure of the ground.
Do the animals have anything that can't be found in the ground?
Just curious.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by bluescat48, posted 01-28-2009 11:34 PM bluescat48 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by bluescat48, posted 01-30-2009 7:54 PM ICANT has replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 180 of 211 (496819)
01-30-2009 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by ICANT
01-30-2009 7:21 PM


Re: Re Life
Do the animals have anything that can't be found in the ground?
Not in a sense but what there is in minute quantities. As I stated earlier about 90% of the "Ground" is composed of the the oxides of Silicon, Aluminum & Iron in that order. Everything else, including non-life elements, is the remaining 10%.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by ICANT, posted 01-30-2009 7:21 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by ICANT, posted 01-30-2009 8:45 PM bluescat48 has replied

  
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