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Author Topic:   Did any author in the New Testament actually know Jesus?
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 196 of 306 (496450)
01-28-2009 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by Brian
01-27-2009 11:48 AM


Re: The Ever-Shifting Goalposts of Biblical Validity
quote:
But Josephus did! Have you even read what Josephus was supposed to have said about Jesus?
He is supposed to have called Jesus the Christ, yet Josephus died a Pharasaic Jew. Josephus wrote chapter after chapter of information about fairly nondescript people, yet we are supposed to believe that his Messiah arrived and he writes a few short sentences about him? Use your common sense.
This is a very good point and I really hope that Peg is paying attention.
According to the disputed Josephus text, Jesus, called Christ, rose from the dead! Surely someone who can rise from the frickin' dead deserves more than a paragraph?
If Josephus genuinely believed that Jesus rose from the dead, why did he not convert to the fledgling Christianity? How could he deny that Jesus was the Messiah under such circumstances?
The most likely answer is simply that he did not believe any such thing. The passage has been tampered with at a later date.
Mutate and Survive

"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Brian, posted 01-27-2009 11:48 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by Brian, posted 01-28-2009 10:50 AM Granny Magda has not replied
 Message 198 by Peg, posted 01-29-2009 6:02 AM Granny Magda has replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 197 of 306 (496452)
01-28-2009 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by Granny Magda
01-28-2009 10:30 AM


We wouldn't need Josephus....
If Jesus was the Messiah, we wouldn't need a few lines in Josephus to inform us, it would be abundantly evidenced. Israel would have been set free from her enemies and the Throne of God set up in Jerusalem. Not only did this not happen in Jesus' time, but shortly after His death Israel was even more suppressed by her enemies!
Jesus was probably a decent guy, but His followers have tried to make Him in to spmething He was not, the Messiah.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Granny Magda, posted 01-28-2009 10:30 AM Granny Magda has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Peg, posted 01-29-2009 6:04 AM Brian has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 198 of 306 (496564)
01-29-2009 6:02 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by Granny Magda
01-28-2009 10:30 AM


Re: The Ever-Shifting Goalposts of Biblical Validity
grannymagda writes:
If Josephus genuinely believed that Jesus rose from the dead, why did he not convert to the fledgling Christianity?
the point was, did josephus confirm the existence of Jesus or not?
clearly he did. It doesnt matter whether he believed in him or not (obviously he didnt)
he didnt believe him, just as the majority of the jews did not believe in him. but it wasnt really the point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Granny Magda, posted 01-28-2009 10:30 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Granny Magda, posted 01-29-2009 7:01 AM Peg has replied
 Message 214 by Kapyong, posted 01-29-2009 4:43 PM Peg has not replied
 Message 216 by Brian, posted 01-29-2009 5:16 PM Peg has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 199 of 306 (496565)
01-29-2009 6:04 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by Brian
01-28-2009 10:50 AM


Re: We wouldn't need Josephus....
Brian writes:
If Jesus was the Messiah, we wouldn't need a few lines in Josephus to inform us, it would be abundantly evidenced. Israel would have been set free from her enemies and the Throne of God set up in Jerusalem. Not only did this not happen in Jesus' time, but shortly after His death Israel was even more suppressed by her enemies!
just like the jews in jesus day, your understanding of what the messiah's purpose is wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Brian, posted 01-28-2009 10:50 AM Brian has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 200 of 306 (496569)
01-29-2009 6:17 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by bluescat48
01-25-2009 8:42 AM


Re: This humble carpenter wasn't exactly what the Jews wanted.
Bluescat48 writes:
But where is your evidence that Matthew wrote Matthew.
Where is the original manuscript in Matthew's handwriting and some other sample of his handwriting, ie a tax document
handwriting analysis lol
im sure you know that would be impossible. The way we know that he wrote the book is because the earliest church historians are all unanimous about his authorship. There is a line of eyewitness testimony to the fact that Mathew was the writer of the gospel and historians such as Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Origen and Tertulian all testify to this fact.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by bluescat48, posted 01-25-2009 8:42 AM bluescat48 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by 8upwidit2, posted 01-29-2009 6:23 AM Peg has replied
 Message 215 by Kapyong, posted 01-29-2009 5:07 PM Peg has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 201 of 306 (496571)
01-29-2009 6:22 AM
Reply to: Message 193 by Huntard
01-28-2009 5:24 AM


Re: The Ever-Shifting Goalposts of Biblical Validity
Huntard, you do realise that if anything that was writen in the gospels was infactual, the followers of christ...who were eyewitnesses to many of jesus miracles... would be able to refute it
but non of the eye witnesses refuted any of the writings. If the christians wrote anything that was untrue, it would have been a well publicized forgery.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Huntard, posted 01-28-2009 5:24 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by 8upwidit2, posted 01-29-2009 6:30 AM Peg has replied
 Message 212 by Huntard, posted 01-29-2009 8:03 AM Peg has replied
 Message 221 by Kapyong, posted 01-30-2009 4:38 PM Peg has replied

8upwidit2
Member (Idle past 4446 days)
Posts: 88
From: Katrinaville USA
Joined: 02-03-2005


Message 202 of 306 (496572)
01-29-2009 6:23 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by Peg
01-29-2009 6:17 AM


Re: This humble carpenter wasn't exactly what the Jews wanted.
Let's assume that the earliest church historians were unanimous in believing the Matthew docs were authentic. When did they believe that to be true..what year(s)? When were historians such as Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Origen and Tertulian all testifying to this fact? Any of them contemporaries of Matthew or Jesus?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Peg, posted 01-29-2009 6:17 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Peg, posted 01-29-2009 6:52 AM 8upwidit2 has replied

8upwidit2
Member (Idle past 4446 days)
Posts: 88
From: Katrinaville USA
Joined: 02-03-2005


Message 203 of 306 (496573)
01-29-2009 6:30 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by Peg
01-29-2009 6:22 AM


Re: The Ever-Shifting Goalposts of Biblical Validity
Peg wrote to Huntard: "you do realise that if anything that was writen in the gospels was infactual, the followers of christ...who were eyewitnesses to many of jesus miracles... would be able to refute it"
What if none of this happened? What if none of Jesus' contemporaries saw anything at all that would make them believe Jesus was the Messiah?
Then there would be no reason to write refutations..right? If all this story was made up starting 100 years after the supposed death of Jesus, his contemporaries would have been out of the loop...nothing to refute. Hey that rhymes! Must be a sign. If the glove does not fit, you must acquit!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Peg, posted 01-29-2009 6:22 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by Peg, posted 01-29-2009 6:56 AM 8upwidit2 has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 204 of 306 (496574)
01-29-2009 6:32 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by Kapyong
01-25-2009 4:29 PM


Re: This humble carpenter wasn't exactly what the Jews wanted.
you think any ruler would have such an event recorded?
i cant imagine any ruler in their right mind would make a written record of such an event.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Kapyong, posted 01-25-2009 4:29 PM Kapyong has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by Kapyong, posted 01-30-2009 3:12 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 218 by Modulous, posted 01-30-2009 5:53 AM Peg has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 205 of 306 (496579)
01-29-2009 6:52 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by 8upwidit2
01-29-2009 6:23 AM


Re: This humble carpenter wasn't exactly what the Jews wanted.
8uptwidit2 writes:
Let's assume that the earliest church historians were unanimous in believing the Matthew docs were authentic. When did they believe that to be true..what year(s)? When were historians such as Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Origen and Tertulian all testifying to this fact? Any of them contemporaries of Matthew or Jesus?
Justin Martyr - a Gentile, born about 110C.E. in Samaria in the city of Flavia Neapolis, the modern Nablus. He called himself a Samaritan and was a diligent student of philosophy. Unsatisfied in his search among the Stoics, Peripatetics, and Pythagoreans, he pursued the ideas of Plato.
Iraneaus - a native of Asia Minor, born between 120C.E. and 140C.E. in or near the city of Smyrna. Irenaeus personally testifies that in his early youth, he was acquainted with Polycarp, an overseer in the Smyrna congregation.
Origen was born about 185C.E. in the Egyptian city of Alexandria and schooled in Greek literature. He became a noted scholar and a prolific writer. He is most famous for his Hexapla, a 50-volume edition of the Hebrew Scriptures. Origen arranged the Hexapla in six parallel columns containing: (1)the Hebrew and Aramaic text, (2)a Greek transliterationof that text, (3)Aquila’s Greek version, (4)Symmachus’ Greek version, (5)the Greek Septuagint, which Origen revised to correspond more exactly to the Hebrew text, and (6)Theodotion’s Greek version. “By this combination of texts,”
Tertullian was a writer in the 2nd and 3rd centuriesC.E. He came to be known as one of the most prolific sources of the history of the Church and of the doctrines which were taught in his time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by 8upwidit2, posted 01-29-2009 6:23 AM 8upwidit2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by 8upwidit2, posted 01-29-2009 7:34 AM Peg has replied
 Message 222 by Kapyong, posted 01-30-2009 4:46 PM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 206 of 306 (496583)
01-29-2009 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by 8upwidit2
01-29-2009 6:30 AM


Re: The Ever-Shifting Goalposts of Biblical Validity
8uptwidit2 writes:
What if none of this happened? What if none of Jesus' contemporaries saw anything at all that would make them believe Jesus was the Messiah?
there is too much evidence that it all did happen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by 8upwidit2, posted 01-29-2009 6:30 AM 8upwidit2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by 8upwidit2, posted 01-29-2009 7:38 AM Peg has not replied

Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 207 of 306 (496585)
01-29-2009 7:01 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by Peg
01-29-2009 6:02 AM


Re: The Ever-Shifting Goalposts of Biblical Validity
Hi Peg,
quote:
he didnt believe him, just as the majority of the jews did not believe in him. but it wasnt really the point.
Once again, you have sailed on past the point, seemingly oblivious. Take another look at the passage;
Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.
Look at those bolded sections. According to this version, Josephus believed that Jesus taught the truth, that his humanity was in doubt, that he was the Christ (not merely called himself Christ in this version), and that he rose from the frickin' dead! Does that sound like a man who did not believe in Jesus?
There is a word for a Jew who believes all of those things. That word is "Christian". Josephus never became Christian, despite apparently holding these beliefs, beliefs which would have been considered heretical by any Jew.
You just don't seem to be interested in critically examining the text, this or any other. How could a Jew of that era believe all this about Jesus, speak of him in such glowing terms, regard his miracles as fact and yet remain unconvinced by him? If I believed that lot, I'd worship him!
There are many problems with the Josephus/Jesus reference, not least the existence of other works that quote The Antiquities of the Jews giving a very different and far less partisan account. The whole business creates more questions than it answers. Claiming that this text confirms Jesus' existence ignores these problems. That is no way to get to the truth.
Mutate and Survive

"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Peg, posted 01-29-2009 6:02 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Peg, posted 01-29-2009 7:33 AM Granny Magda has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 208 of 306 (496591)
01-29-2009 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 207 by Granny Magda
01-29-2009 7:01 AM


Re: The Ever-Shifting Goalposts of Biblical Validity
hi grannymagda,
grannymagda writes:
How could a Jew of that era believe all this about Jesus, speak of him in such glowing terms, regard his miracles as fact and yet remain unconvinced by him?
because faith is not a possession of all people. Seeing is not necessarily believing and believing does not necessarily motivate one to follow.
Perhaps Josephus was well aware of what it meant to be a christian in those days and didnt want to be hunted down and burned alive or fed to the lions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Granny Magda, posted 01-29-2009 7:01 AM Granny Magda has not replied

8upwidit2
Member (Idle past 4446 days)
Posts: 88
From: Katrinaville USA
Joined: 02-03-2005


Message 209 of 306 (496592)
01-29-2009 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by Peg
01-29-2009 6:52 AM


Re: This humble carpenter wasn't exactly what the Jews wanted.
In your own dating system, Peg, you show the labored point that NONE of these historians lived before the 2nd or 3rd centuries current era. So if they were supporting any documents or occurrences prior to that, it would be hearsay based on something somebody else wrote or said. How would anything they would say have any value in this conversation?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Peg, posted 01-29-2009 6:52 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by Peg, posted 01-29-2009 7:53 AM 8upwidit2 has not replied

8upwidit2
Member (Idle past 4446 days)
Posts: 88
From: Katrinaville USA
Joined: 02-03-2005


Message 210 of 306 (496593)
01-29-2009 7:38 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by Peg
01-29-2009 6:56 AM


Re: The Ever-Shifting Goalposts of Biblical Validity
Peg wrote: "there is too much evidence that it all did happen."
Peg, what evidence are you talking about? That's why these folks keep hammering you. Give us the evidence. Don't give us people who never knew Jesus or his followers. Who wrote down "I saw Jesus". Not who wrote down that somebody said they saw Jesus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Peg, posted 01-29-2009 6:56 AM Peg has not replied

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