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Author Topic:   "Macro" vs "Micro" genetic "kind" mechanism?
IchiBan
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 88
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 197 of 248 (496624)
01-29-2009 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by RAZD
01-28-2009 9:19 PM


Re: lists aren't limits.
Heavier than air powered flight = maintaining level flight at a given altitude under its own power.
There is no evidence that the flying squirrel, the flying fish, or any of the other gliding creatures ever mutated into a creature capable of heavier than air powered flight, which is what the bird, bat, insects and airplane are capable of.
The gliding creatures (save the gliding fish) all have fairly steep glide ratios meaning they are in a descent for the entire trip unless they catch a momentary thermal to override their descent velocity.
The flying fish is operating/gliding in ground effect which greatly extends his glide path, and powering himself with his tailfin in the water, not the air.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by RAZD, posted 01-28-2009 9:19 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 199 by RAZD, posted 01-29-2009 8:44 PM IchiBan has replied

  
IchiBan
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 88
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 200 of 248 (496670)
01-29-2009 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by RAZD
01-29-2009 8:44 PM


Re: Convergent Evolution Invalidates Evolution Barrier
Thank You RAZD
I see your post has some built in assumptions that have not been borne out IMO.
What I was keying on is that very often the gliding creatures are interjected into the discussion with the inference that they were/are an example of creature in an early stage of evolution into another creature towards powered flight. Darwin even had it in his own writings specifically about the flying fish evolving into something more.
This genetic barrier to macro-evolution, It is a false challenge to the creationists because it assumes evolution as true, when the evidence shows only adaption and variation within limits.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by RAZD, posted 01-29-2009 8:44 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by Coyote, posted 01-29-2009 10:19 PM IchiBan has replied
 Message 208 by RAZD, posted 01-30-2009 12:53 AM IchiBan has replied

  
IchiBan
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 88
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 202 of 248 (496676)
01-29-2009 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by Coyote
01-29-2009 10:19 PM


Re: Convergent Evolution Invalidates Evolution Barrier
Macro evolution has not been demonstrated, it was only inferred by Darwin and there has been no evidence for it since then that has stood the test of time. If you have the specific evidence of that pls bring it here.
So therefore you are asking for a mechanism to stop a result that has not been demonstrated. IOW, You are talking mechanisms that dont exist in nature.

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 Message 201 by Coyote, posted 01-29-2009 10:19 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by Coyote, posted 01-29-2009 11:00 PM IchiBan has replied
 Message 211 by RAZD, posted 01-30-2009 1:39 AM IchiBan has not replied
 Message 219 by Blue Jay, posted 01-30-2009 5:42 PM IchiBan has not replied

  
IchiBan
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 88
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 204 of 248 (496683)
01-29-2009 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by Coyote
01-29-2009 11:00 PM


Re: Convergent Evolution Invalidates Evolution Barrier
"Scientific evidence supports macroevolution as the mechanism for evolution"
Well lets talk about the evidence then, bring your best most comprehensive evidence here to the forum.

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 Message 205 by AdminNosy, posted 01-29-2009 11:39 PM IchiBan has replied

  
IchiBan
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 88
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 206 of 248 (496688)
01-30-2009 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by AdminNosy
01-29-2009 11:39 PM


Re: Topic!
LOL! I know plenty about the "voluminous evidence" for macro-evolution. But okay not on this thread.
About the voluminous evidence for macro-evolution, that is a whole nuther topic on its own I guess. On that note, what would you define as substantiated fact when it comes to macro-evolution?

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IchiBan
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 88
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 222 of 248 (496979)
01-31-2009 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by RAZD
01-30-2009 12:53 AM


Re: Convergent Evolution Invalidates Evolution Barrier
Macro-evolution as I see it has not been demonstrated, I will use the recent example of salamanders as a ring species from a few years ago to point that out.
However if you insist it is so, then I would suggest it is more correct to say that there is no known genetic barrier to macro-evolution that has been found to date rather than to say there is no such barrier that exists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by RAZD, posted 01-30-2009 12:53 AM RAZD has replied

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 Message 225 by RAZD, posted 01-31-2009 9:12 PM IchiBan has replied

  
IchiBan
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 88
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 228 of 248 (497005)
01-31-2009 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by RAZD
01-31-2009 9:12 PM


Re: Convergent Evolution Invalidates Evolution Barrier
Hello RAZD
I note that you have not provided an alternative definition for macroevolution to what I presented to you.
I did not give that a lot of thought before I replied. While I may not agree with your definition to varying degrees, I can work with it for purpose of discussion.
That there is no barrier is demonstrated by convergent species, like the sugar glider and the flying squirrel: nothing prevented them from evolving such similarity to fill a similar ecological niche.
We still do not see any evidence that they broke out of the niche went beyond it in an evolutionary sense as Darwin imagined would happen with the flying fish. He imagined it might have been modified into that perfectly winged animal. In this manner the gliding frog, snake, lizard, fish, mammal, and marsupial all share the end point, in that way these creatures are failures of his theory to substantiate macro-evolution.
Darwin
seeing that we have flying birds and mammals, flying insects of the most diversified types, and formerly had flying reptiles, it is conceivable that flying-fish, which now glide far through the air, slightly rising and turning by the aid of their fluttering fins, might have been modified into perfectly winged animals. If this had been effected, who would have ever imagined that in an early transitional state they had been inhabitants of the open ocean, and had used their incipient organs of flight exclusively, as far as we know, to escape being devoured by other fish?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by RAZD, posted 01-31-2009 9:12 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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