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Author Topic:   "Macro" vs "Micro" genetic "kind" mechanism?
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 189 of 248 (496551)
01-29-2009 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by RAZD
01-28-2009 9:19 PM


Re: lists aren't limits.
Now that was a good post.
Given your post, we are still looking to find some mechanism that prevents the micros from becoming macros.
I have been asking creationists to provide that mechanism for several years and have never received a suitable answer either.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by RAZD, posted 01-28-2009 9:19 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 201 of 248 (496674)
01-29-2009 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by IchiBan
01-29-2009 9:44 PM


Re: Convergent Evolution Invalidates Evolution Barrier
This genetic barrier to macro-evolution, It is a false challenge to the creationists because it assumes evolution as true, when the evidence shows only adaption and variation within limits.
I beg to differ. Religious belief prescribes "only adaption and variation within limits" because of the biblical mention of "kinds."
Science has not supported that limitation. It has, in fact, shown the opposite: there is no known mechanism that prevents micro-evolution from progressing to macro-evolution over time.
I have asked creationists to provide me with a mechanism that prevents micros from adding up over time to macros. I have never received a satisfactory answer.
Perhaps you can be the first to provide such an answer?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by IchiBan, posted 01-29-2009 9:44 PM IchiBan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by IchiBan, posted 01-29-2009 10:48 PM Coyote has replied
 Message 209 by PaulK, posted 01-30-2009 1:13 AM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 203 of 248 (496680)
01-29-2009 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by IchiBan
01-29-2009 10:48 PM


Re: Convergent Evolution Invalidates Evolution Barrier
Macro evolution has not been demonstrated, it was only inferred by Darwin and there has been no evidence for it since then that has stood the test of time. If you have the specific evidence of that pls bring it here.
So therefore you are asking for a mechanism to stop a result that has not been demonstrated. IOW, You are talking mechanisms that dont exist in nature.
Sorry, that is not correct.
Scientific evidence supports macroevolution as the mechanism for evolution. Only the bible states otherwise.
When you start looking at the evidence, there is overwhelming support for the former position, and a complete lack of evidence for the latter position.
Does it not mean anything to you that scientists from all over the world, of various religions or no religion, all come with the same answer while only biblical fundamentalists come up with an opposing answer?
Doesn't it ever occur to you that you are doing religion, rather than science; relying on belief rather than evidence? And that science has provided the answers that you steadfastly deny?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by IchiBan, posted 01-29-2009 10:48 PM IchiBan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by IchiBan, posted 01-29-2009 11:15 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 207 of 248 (496689)
01-30-2009 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by IchiBan
01-30-2009 12:00 AM


Re: Topic!
About the voluminous evidence for macro-evolution, that is a whole nuther topic on its own I guess. On that note, what would you define as substantiated fact when it comes to macro-evolution?
If you want to stay on topic show us the mechanism that prevents one genus, say the ancient primate ancestor, from evolving into all of the subsequent genera of ape (i.e., orangutans, gorillas, chimpanzees, and humans).
But to do this, you first have to counter all of genetics, supported by paleontology, as those fields show that the ancient primate ancestor did evolve into those more recent genera. Then you have to show the mechanism that prevented that evolution.
And please, I've had a long day. Stick to science. Leave the religious belief and creation "science" for another day, eh?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by IchiBan, posted 01-30-2009 12:00 AM IchiBan has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 210 of 248 (496698)
01-30-2009 1:28 AM
Reply to: Message 209 by PaulK
01-30-2009 1:13 AM


Re: Convergent Evolution Invalidates Evolution Barrier
quote:
I beg to differ. Religious belief prescribes "only adaption and variation within limits" because of the biblical mention of "kinds."
I think you're wrong there Coyote. The Biblical mention of "kinds" is exaggerated and misrepresented to support creationist ideas. There's no reason to believe that the biblical usage matches the creationist usage.
I'll have to take your word on that, as that's far outside my field.
I am only going by what I have read on creationist websites and seen posted on threads like this. One example is:
What are the Genesis “kinds”? Baraminology”classification of created organisms
If you could, while staying within the topic, I would like to hear your thoughts on the "kind" problem. To stay on topic you'll probably have to relate it to the mechanism that prevents microevolution from becoming macroevolution over extended periods of time, or looked at from the other direction, the mechanism that keeps kinds from "branching out" (if you'll pardon the pun).
Thanks!

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by PaulK, posted 01-30-2009 1:13 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by NosyNed, posted 01-30-2009 8:47 AM Coyote has not replied
 Message 217 by PaulK, posted 01-30-2009 2:46 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 226 of 248 (497003)
01-31-2009 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by RAZD
01-31-2009 9:12 PM


Re: Convergent Evolution Invalidates Evolution Barrier
That there is no barrier is demonstrated by convergent species, like the sugar glider and the flying squirrel: nothing prevented them from evolving such similarity to fill a similar ecological niche.
What this means is that the concept of a barrier that would prevent such evolution is invalidated, demonstrated to be a false concept.
Those who insist that there is such a barrier have never proposed a verifiable mechanism that shows how and why such a barrier would function, let alone that one even exists.
That is the topic of this thread--to provide an opportunity to those who believe in such a barrier to present their evidence.
I have not seen any evidence presented that such a barrier exists. What I have seen in this thread is the unsupported belief that such a barrier exist, repeated over and over as if that made it evidence.
If I'm wrong, there is still a chance to present evidence to the contrary. We have a few posts to go.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by RAZD, posted 01-31-2009 9:12 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
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