If the Bible is Accurate, why did the Church kill so many?

Rrhain,I am not anti-semite(what an offense of yours).Jesus disciples were Jews.
God creates Adam and Eve like his image.
This means that Adam and Eve has the Holy Spirit inside of them.
They are not separated from God(God even walks in the Garden).
They had a strong relationship with God and are dressed with his glory
(that is why they dont know they are nude).Because of that being nude was not a sin.What i wanna to tell you is that they have supernatural knowledge that comes from inner REVELATION and not INFORMATION from outside.They know God because they had a relationship with him.Eva sinned not because of ignorance but because she was attracted to the fruit by its beauty and flavor.And Adam because of woman sedution.Thereafter Sin enter in the world,it becames caotic and they loses they relationship with God.Every man in this world borns slave of the devil,separated by God and consequently cant understand the spiritual things .However when man have faith in Jesus sacrifice he receives salvation and becomes like the first man understanding the spiritual things.The only diference is that we still wait for a perfect body in our corruptile body.That will only happen in the Judgement Day.You say that the serpent is not possesed by the devil.
Whoever posseses it is enemy of God and I dont believe in ETs nor serpents that talk by themselves nor in time machines.So it leaves no choice.God would be unfair if our choices were based in carnal falibble thinking because it is based on our five fallible senses.
That is why we are not save by good deeds but by faith in Jesus.Because when we receive Jesus our choices are based not solely in external information but also in our internal testimony who analizes critically the external data.

Newborn,Numbers 31:7-17I fail to see how this somehow has cosmic importance? How does killing babies and rapeing virgins have cosmic importance?And I fail to see how Jesus makes any sense at all. The basic gist of it as that he is basicaly an offering to apease God.Its even more silly when you think about it:God sends himself to kill himself to apease himself, so he dosn't have to burn all his creations who he is supposed to love so very much. And to top it all off, all we have to do is belive he did this or he will still burn you up, cuz he loves you. Yet more killing.The Bible is full of history about people killing others to protect their fragile belifes. Most of Mosess' atrocities against Caina were perpetrated because they belived in other Gods. Not to mention all the other kings.And as wonderfull as Jesus is painted by christians, I fail to see how he makes god any nicer. Hes still gonna "kill" everybody for their belifes in the end Just as the church once did, and the ancient isrealites did.It seems like the acorns (christianity) don't fall to far from the tree, God that is.Oh, and radical muslims (a derivative of the Judeo-Christian tradition) are still killing in Gods name today. And If you want Christians, try Irland, or Kosovo (sp?). And they all belive God is on their side. And don't think the Israelies are a bunch of saints eaither, cuz their just as screwd up (if not more so) than the palestinians.[This message has been edited by Yaro, 08-06-2003]

I don't think this is actually a response to me but it is linked to my message, so: Conquer is the key word isn't it? Bully for you. How about a bit of argument from scripture and logic?

Newborn responds to me:

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Rrhain,I am not anti-semite(what an offense of yours).Jesus disciples were Jews.

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That's such a broad definition of "Jew" as to make the word meaningless.You had said, and I quote: Well, current Jews also reject Jesus. Are they "arrogant," too? Or is it impossible to deny Jesus without being willful?

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God creates Adam and Eve like his image.
This means that Adam and Eve has the Holy Spirit inside of them.

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Except that they are innocent and thus don't know the difference between good and evil and they are mortal and thus will die.

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They had a strong relationship with God and are dressed with his glory
(that is why they dont know they are nude).

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That's not what the Bible says:Genesis 2:25: And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.Where do we find that Adam and Eve were "dressed with his glory" and that this was the reason why they didn't know they were naked?

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Because of that being nude was not a sin.

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No, it was still a sin. Genesis 2:25 makes it clear that it was still sinful...they just didn't know what they were doing because they were innocent, not having eaten from the Tree of Knowledge yet.After all, look at what their first reaction is after eating from the Tree:Genesis 3:7: And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.Notice that it is not panic over what they just did. The only thing they were told not to do is what they just did. Surely the disobedience is more problematic than being naked. But do they give even a single passing thought to that? No, the first thing they do is try to cover up. And when god comes looking for them and asks them why they're hiding, they are still stuck on the naked thing:Genesis 3:10: And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.It never occurs to them that eating from the Tree was a bad thing until god brings it up:Genesis 3:11: And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

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Every man in this world borns slave of the devil

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How misanthropic. What a low opinion of people you have.

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You say that the serpent is not possesed by the devil.

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There's nothing in the Bible that says the serpent was. It says, directly, that the serpent was simply smart:Genesis 3:1: Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?Could you please point out to me where this passage talks about the devil?And since the serpent was not the devil, we must necessarily conclude that the devil had nothing to do with it.

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Whoever posseses it is enemy of God and I dont believe in ETs nor serpents that talk by themselves nor in time machines.

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You may not believe it, but that's what the Bible says. Nowhere does it say that anybody or anything possessed the serpent. Instead, it simply says the serpent was really smart.

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So it leaves no choice.

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Yep...and yet, you decided not to take the only possible answer and instead, made something up out of whole cloth.Where does it say the serpent was possessed by the devil?Chapter and verse, please.

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What i wanna to tell you is that they have supernatural knowledge that comes from inner REVELATION and not INFORMATION from outside.

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That isn't what the Bible says.Why do you think you are in a position to rewrite the Bible?

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That is why we are not save by good deeds but by faith in Jesus.

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That's not what the Bible says.James 2:14: What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?Of course, the Bible contradicts itself on this matter. Some passages say faith alone is enough, others say that faith won't do it...it's your deeds that get god's attention.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Rrhain,let me clarify you something:Faith in Jesus(what gives you salvation) had to precede good deeds and this ones are necessary.Its like a wedding.A wedding is made on a decision in wich the bride says she accepts her husband and she trust him.That was necessary and sufficient to begin the wedding.But then there is still a lifetime process in wich she has to love and serve him and he have to love and serve her.But the very fact that two unmarried persons who loves each other serves each other dont made them married(nor they have obrigations with each other before wedding).The wedding simbolizes our Salvation and it couldnt be achieved by good deeds but by faith.THEREFORE you have to made good deeds of course.
Israelites were arrogant because they still think that Gods ultimate plan was something related to nation elevation but it was not.Gods ultimate plan was Jesus.
It wasnt a definition of jew.I said that Jesus disciples are jews not that jew means to be Jesus disciple.
If Adam and Eve have the Holy Spirit they are not inocent puppets.
Read this versicle (it talks about saved people):
I Corinths 2:6-16(it is good if you read the entire capter)
I am talking to everyone in the forum.
I believe God had gave me that word for now.
With it you will understand why Israel rejected Jesus and that Jesus is the purpose of the old testament.
Think it this way:If Israel dont possess the promised land Jesus would not have come and our only way of salvation would perish .
The obvious consequences of it is that no one in any time could go to heaven and could burn in hell forever.Then the killings of the old testament are very inocent after all.God have the power of ressurrect people.Material(carnal) ressurrection dont depends in our personal decisions but spiritual ressurrection(salvation) does.
God thinked first in spiritual ressurection.It was a priority.
Adam and Eve are ashamed just because being nude was not a sin because
man were created perfect and with the glory of the Lord.But the glory leaves man when he sinned.
Before the fall the world was of man(in a little scale of course).But in the fall man gaves his autority to Satan.That is why people (except those who are redeemed by the faith in the blood of Jesus) are slaves of the Devil.

Ok Newborn,Explain Jesus to me.Why did he have to die? He was to atone for our sins right?Also, he was God. So as I said before, the gist of the story is:God sent himself down to earth to kill himself to apease himself so he woulden't have to burn us all, who he loves so very much, in hell. And anyone who never hears of this, or dosn't belive it, God loves, but will still burn for ever.How does this make sense? Why does anyone need to atone?Is God not all powerfull? Can't he excuse his falible creations that know no better?If my kid does something stupid because of ignorance, I don't hold him acountable!So how on earth do you expect any human to belive the Christian mythose purely because some ratty old tome says so?There are alot of Raty old tomes, nothing special about yours.Why the heck would an all loving God not realize this?Why is your religion more valid than all others?Really, answer these questions if you can. I wan't to know, I wan't to know! ... seriously, I really do want to know the rational.

Newborn responds to me:

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Faith in Jesus(what gives you salvation) had to precede good deeds

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Why? Are you saying that none of the people in the Old Testament were capable of good deeds? After all, none of them had faith in Jesus.

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Israelites were arrogant because they still think that Gods ultimate plan was something related to nation elevation but it was not.Gods ultimate plan was Jesus.

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Like I said. Anti-Semitism always leaves a rotten odor....Just who on earth are you to tell other people that they are "arrogant" in their religious beliefs? Who died and made you god?

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It wasnt a definition of jew.I said that Jesus disciples are jews not that jew means to be Jesus disciple.

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I know. What I said was that to include followers of Jesus in the definition of "Jew" is to make the definition so broad as to be meaningless.Would you not agree that one of the tenets of Judaism is that the Messiah has not come yet?Now, I am fully aware that Christianity is an outgrowth of Judaism and that there is a significant transition period between what was Judaism then and what we understand as Christianity today. Too, Jewishness is a cultural tradition as well as a religious one. But still, one of the big things in Judaism is that the Messiah has not come. If one says that the Messiah has come and that he is Jesus, then a big break has been made.

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If Adam and Eve have the Holy Spirit they are not inocent puppets.

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Where in Genesis does it say they do? I've asked you this before and you have yet to respond.Chapter and verse, please.

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Read this versicle (it talks about saved people):
I Corinths 2:6-16(it is good if you read the entire capter)

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Irrelevant. That's a Christian teaching. We're dealing with Genesis...a Jewish book. It must be understood in Jewish terms. Where in Genesis does it say anything about Adam and Eve and the Holy Spirit?

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The obvious consequences of it is that no one in any time could go to heaven and could burn in hell forever.

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Pascal's Wager again. You do know what Pascal's Wager is, yes?Blaise Pascal was a philosopher in France (it's for him that the computer language Pascal is named.) He put forth an argument that he thought was logically valid which indicated why people should believe in god. In brief, it goes like this:Suppose there is no god. Then if you don't believe, nothing will happen to you when you die because there is no god. But if you do believe, then you will have lost nothing because when you die, nothing will happen to you either because there is no god.But suppose there is a god. Then if you don't believe, you will lose your enternal soul to hell. But if you do believe, you will gain eternal bliss in heaven.Thus, a person should believe since with belief, you lose nothing and can potentially gain everything. With non-belief, you win nothing and can potentially lose everything.But there's a problem with this: It assumes Christianity (and in Pascal's case, Catholicism). Suppose god does exist. What on earth makes anybody think that it is necessarily the Christian one? Just because you believe in the Christian god does not mean that that's the god that really exists. The god that really exists might not particularly like your non-belief in him and thus in your belief, you condemn yourself to hell. Your belief in god will not save you because you chose the wrong one. You just avoided the wrong hell.

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Adam and Eve are ashamed just because being nude was not a sin because
man were created perfect and with the glory of the Lord.But the glory leaves man when he sinned.

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But how can one sin when one doesn't understand good from evil? If being naked isn't a sin if you're innocent, how can disobedience be a sin when you're innocent?Once again, they haven't eaten from the Tree of Knowledge yet. They don't understand that they're not supposed to.Suppose I give you two choices: Beetaratagang and clerendipity. One is the way of god while the other will condemn you to hell.Which do you choose? Beetaratagang or clerendipity? It's a simple choice. You're an adult. So why are you hesitating?Could it possibly be because you don't understand what those terms mean? Any choice you made would be random and without purpose precisely because you don't understand. You're innocent. You have not been bestowed with the knowledge required to tell the two apart.And that's exactly the position Adam and Eve were in. They were innocent. They hadn't eaten from the Tree of Knowledge yet. So how on earth could they possibly understand that they're not supposed to eat from it? Just because god told them not to isn't sufficient. Why are they supposed to listen to god? "God is good" isn't good enough because Adam and Eve don't know what "good" is.

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Before the fall the world was of man(in a little scale of course).But in the fall man gaves his autority to Satan.

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Why? That isn't what Genesis says.

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That is why people (except those who are redeemed by the faith in the blood of Jesus) are slaves of the Devil.

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Says who? You? Why should we believe you?You're invoking Pascal's Wager again. You're assuming what you are trying to prove.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

yet you miss the whole point of genesis. How can you say the creator of life from lifelessnes, is wrong and man is right. The Genesis story is ABOUT man's and I qoute 'shameful fall'. The whole point of Messiah coming is based on this, yet you sit there and pick little qoutes out, thinking that your qoute is the whole story !'Like I said. Anti-Semitism always leaves a rotten odor....'Your right , he put it wrongly. Nevertheless 'Israel' means , ' one who wrestles with God' Your right 'arrogant' is the wrong word, but God named this nation Israel, they do wrestle with God occasionally!

mike the wiz responds to me:

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yet you miss the whole point of genesis.

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And what is the point of Genesis, pray tell?And what makes you think you have a lock on it?

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How can you say the creator of life from lifelessnes, is wrong and man is right.

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And where do you find this "creator of life from lifelessness"? Bring him forth so that we can ask him directly how he did it.You will note that nowhere in the Bible does it say how god managed to do it. In fact, if we look at what is said about the creation of Adam and what he is made of, it sounds an awful lot like abiogenesis.Who are you to say that god didn't use abiogenesis to create humans?

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The Genesis story is ABOUT man's and I qoute 'shameful fall'.

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Indeed.Have you considered the possibility that the Bible isn't what you think it is? That it was written not by god but rather by the devil? What better coup would there be than to convince you, the hapless soul in need of salvation, that the devil was really god?And much more delicious the irony if the evidence that the Bible was really written by the other side were right there to be seen for everyone: The damnation of the innocent, the irrationality of the supposedly righteous, the cursing of the truthful. With such a clearly illogical beginning, why would anybody consider the Bible to be a work of god?

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The whole point of Messiah coming is based on this,

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What makes you think the Messiah came? And what makes you think the Messiah is here to save us from "Original Sin"? Oh, that's right...your book says so. Your book justifies itself.Why don't you ask the Jews what the purpose of the Messiah is?

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yet you sit there and pick little qoutes out, thinking that your qoute is the whole story !

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I don't pretend that at all. I simply ask you to show me where in the Bible your claim is made. It is the Christians who claim that the serpent was the devil and yet, nowhere in Genesis does it make that claim. So where is it? The closest they can come up with are two pathetic cites of Revelation that by calling the dragon a "serpent," this means that it is the same serpent as mentioned in Genesis.

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Like I said. Anti-Semitism always leaves a rotten odor....

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Your right , he put it wrongly.

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Then let us both condemn him.

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Nevertheless 'Israel' means , ' one who wrestles with God'

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Um, no. "Israel" means, literally, "god prevails." But in context, it means "prince of God."

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Your right 'arrogant' is the wrong word, but God named this nation Israel, they do wrestle with God occasionally!

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And? What's wrong with wrestling with god? You have your view of how one is supposed to deal with god. Jews have a different way.What makes your way right?------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

'And? What's wrong with wrestling with god? You have your view of how one is supposed to deal with god. Jews have a different way.What makes your way right?'I am not saying they are wrong at all. All I said is that 'they wrestle' with God, which is a truth throughout the old testament. I DO agree with you. My only point is: Remember when Jacob wrestled with God? So God called him Israel, Remember how the Israelites went away from God in Exodus? also in Jeremiah?
Listen I'm always admitting I am wrong, al I was saying about Genesis is that to the reader it is obvious what the story is about.'Have you considered the possibility that the Bible isn't what you think it is? That it was written not by god but rather by the devil?'Well, personally I do not think God would give the devil that much power. Remember God gets awful angry with false prophets. I mean, do you really think Jesus is the bad guy ? maybe you should re read his words!

Mike,
Give it up. You are beating your head against a wall. You can't win because they have already decided not to believe. BTW, if Satan did write the bible why would he include parts about demons (his minions)being cast out and himself looking bad in so many ways? This is a preposterous proposal. Wouldn't you agree?

You know Theo? Mike's been holding his own here for longer than you. He didn't come here (at least it doesn't seem so to me) to preach and convert so I don't believe he has anything to win or lose.Here's a preposterous proposal for you, why would god put so many things in the bible that make him look so bad in so many ways?------------------
Asgara "An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

The opposite question is just as perplexing. Why would the men who wrote the Bible include so many stories portraying their God in a negative light?--Percy

Perhaps they did not consider that light to be negative; merely Just and exhibiting an appropriate amount of Vengeance; you know, Created in the image of Man.

Interesting ideas here, but your straying from the topic. I have a few thoughts as to why so many were killed. First thought is this: The religion is false, and anyone who had or who knew the origianal works or philosophies were killed and their work destroyed, all done to cover up the fact that the bible was stolen from other religions and philosophies. Second: When the religion was first started, many people REJECTED it, this forced the church to force its religion on people, thus you get torture and death done buy the hands of those who proclaim themselves holy. Lastly, why would a religion feel so threatened by other religons and philosopies, what would cause that? Well thats all I have for now, and I thank you in advance for your replies, I always enjoy hearing other peoples thoughts.------------------
--ignorance is humankind's worst enemy--