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Author Topic:   Did any author in the New Testament actually know Jesus?
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 211 of 306 (496594)
01-29-2009 7:53 AM
Reply to: Message 209 by 8upwidit2
01-29-2009 7:34 AM


Re: This humble carpenter wasn't exactly what the Jews wanted.
8upwidit2 writes:
In your own dating system, Peg, you show the labored point that NONE of these historians lived before the 2nd or 3rd centuries current era. So if they were supporting any documents or occurrences prior to that, it would be hearsay based on something somebody else wrote or said. How would anything they would say have any value in this conversation?
what they say holds a lot of value.
historians didnt' just write the goings on of the things that were happening in their own day.
they were researchers of things of the past too, just as they are today. For instance Josephus, in the first centuryC.E., records the Jewish tradition that Alexander The Great was met by the Jewish high priest and was shown the divinely inspired prophecies recorded by Daniel foretelling the lightning conquests by Greece.
he wrote about things that happened centuries before his time. He also wrote about the destruction of the temple in 70CE, something he did witness and his account also states that the repository of the archives, housing the genealogical records of tribal and family descent and inheritance rights, was put to the fire. (The Jewish War, VI, 250, 251 [iv, 5]; II, 426-428 [xvii, 6]; VI, 354 [vi, 3])
this shows us that the jews did keep records of all births and jewish families and housed these records in temple. much the same way our government has a registry of births deaths and marriages...no much has changed since ancient times.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by 8upwidit2, posted 01-29-2009 7:34 AM 8upwidit2 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by bluescat48, posted 01-29-2009 8:05 AM Peg has not replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2296 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 212 of 306 (496595)
01-29-2009 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by Peg
01-29-2009 6:22 AM


Re: The Ever-Shifting Goalposts of Biblical Validity
Peg writes:
Huntard, you do realise that if anything that was writen in the gospels was infactual, the followers of christ...who were eyewitnesses to many of jesus miracles... would be able to refute it but non of the eye witnesses refuted any of the writings. If the christians wrote anything that was untrue, it would have been a well publicized forgery.
There's a very simple reason for this, Peg. The gospels were written AFTER the supposed eyewitnesses were all dead. So even if they saw something completely different, they wouldn't be able to refute any of it, they weren't alive anymore to do so.
Edited by Huntard, : Quote mistake

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Peg, posted 01-29-2009 6:22 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by Peg, posted 01-30-2009 6:57 AM Huntard has replied

bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4190 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 213 of 306 (496596)
01-29-2009 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by Peg
01-29-2009 7:53 AM


Re: This humble carpenter wasn't exactly what the Jews wanted.
records the Jewish tradition that Alexander The Great was met by the Jewish high priest and was shown the divinely inspired prophecies recorded by Daniel foretelling the lightning conquests by Greece.
Tradition is not evidence of anything just something that has become fashionable to believe no real evidence.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Peg, posted 01-29-2009 7:53 AM Peg has not replied

Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3443 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 214 of 306 (496646)
01-29-2009 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Peg
01-29-2009 6:02 AM


Re: The Ever-Shifting Goalposts of Biblical Validity
Gday,
Peg writes:
the point was, did josephus confirm the existence of Jesus or not?
No.
The passage is corrupt, and not reliable.
Peg writes:
clearly he did. It doesnt matter whether he believed in him or not (obviously he didnt) he didnt believe him, just as the majority of the jews did not believe in him. but it wasnt really the point.
The point is that the T.F. is suspect, and cannot be relied upon.
Kapyong

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Peg, posted 01-29-2009 6:02 AM Peg has not replied

Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3443 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 215 of 306 (496651)
01-29-2009 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by Peg
01-29-2009 6:17 AM


Re: This humble carpenter wasn't exactly what the Jews wanted.
Gday,
Peg writes:
The way we know that he wrote the book is because the earliest church historians are all unanimous about his authorship.
In fact, the earliest references to the Gospels (starting no earlier than early-mid 2nd century) are as UN-NAMED documents. There is no clear quotations of G.Matthew by name until late 2nd century - well over a century after the alleged events.
Peg writes:
There is a line of eyewitness testimony
There are no eye-witnesses.
Peg writes:
to the fact that Mathew was the writer of the gospel
The first reference of any kind to a writing by Matthew (in Hebrew) is Papias (not an eye-witness) in early-mid 2nd century, but it is NOT quite the same as the modern G.Matthew (which was written in Greek.)
Peg writes:
and historians such as Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Origen and Tertulian
Historians?
You mean faithful Christians preaching faithful Christian beliefs.
Justin Martyr wrote in the 150s or so - he mentions the "memoirs of the apostles" and says they are "called Gospels", and gives quotes that are not quite the same as modern Gospels. But he does NOT name the authors at all - did you know that Peg? Did you know that Justin does NOT ONCE give any Evangelist's name?
Irenaeus wrote in the 180s or so - he is the VERY FIRST Christian to EVER list the four name of the Evangelists. Did you know that Peg? Did you know the earliest Christian to list the names Matthew, Mark, Luke and John is from the 180s? A century and a half after the alleged events.
Origen wrote in early 3rd century, nearly 2 CENTURIES after the alleged events.
Peg writes:
all testify to this fact.
Pardon me Peg, but you keep doing that - quoting Christian beliefs as if they were fact. But we're not believers here Peg, you goal is to SHOW your Christian beliefs as true, not just repeat them as if we are members of your choir.
These are not facts at all, they are claims - they are beliefs - by people who had no connection at all with the 1st generation of Christians.
What we DO have is a collection of books of UNKNOWN origin - yes that's right, modern NT scholars agree that we do not know who wrote any of the Gospels, which were originally anonymous, and written long after the alleged events.
Much later, after the wars, some other people started to believe these Gospels were history.
Kapyong

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Peg, posted 01-29-2009 6:17 AM Peg has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 216 of 306 (496652)
01-29-2009 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Peg
01-29-2009 6:02 AM


Re: The Ever-Shifting Goalposts of Biblical Validity
It doesnt matter whether he believed in him or not (obviously he didnt)
he didnt believe him, just as the majority of the jews did not believe in him. but it wasnt really the point.
So why would Josephus say that Jesus was The Christ if he didn't believe it?
Surely he would have said something like 'Jesus, the false Christ', or 'the imposter Jesus'?
You really do need to develop some critical thinking skills Peg if you are genuinely interested in history.
The thing about history is that it isn't what happened in the past, it is what the author tells you that happened in the past. History is entirely a construct of the human mind, and as such it is subject to the bias and worldview of the author. When you realise this you have to approach historical texts with an open mind and look at as many possible angles as you can. For example, who was the author and what reasons does that person have for writing down this history? If we look at the Gospel of Matthew it is obvious that he was not writing an unbiased critical record of Jesus' life. The author of Matthew's Gospel was writing for a specific purpose, to convince his readers that Jesus was the promised Messiah. It is exactly the same as you writing a persuasive essay at school or college, you include as much positive points as you can, you would tend to leave out info that weakens your argument, you may even throw in a little 'out of context' information as well for extra effect.
The biblical texts must be treated the same as any other texts, they have to be scrutinised if we are to arrive at a conclusion that is going to be anywhere near accurate.
The Bible authors were as likely to present a skewed version of events as any other ancient author. The Bible authors were no different to the countless other ancient writers who exaggerated events and recorded what they wanted to have happened and not what actually did happen.
The history that is recorded in the Bible is the same as any other history, it only happened in the minds of the people that wrote it down. Thus we have to be critical of all texts and present plausible and reasonable conclusions about the authors' intentions.
Now if you look at the Josephus quote and try to be objective there are huge problems. He allegedly said that Jesus was The Christ, now think carefully about this, what would be his motivation for doing this?
Did Josephus call Jesus The Christ because he believed it?
Did he call him The Christ because he didn't believe it?
Why call him The Christ at all?
If he believed that Jesus was The Christ then surely he would have converted to Christianity. That is the only sensible conclusion.
If he didn't believe that Jesus was The Christ then why wouldn't he record that Jesus was an imposter? If he didn't believe that Jesus was The Christ then why bother mentioning Him at all?
There's a lot more to textual criticism than this of course, but you need to ask yourself if you are genuinely interested in what happened in the past, or if your mind is closed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Peg, posted 01-29-2009 6:02 AM Peg has not replied

Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3443 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 217 of 306 (496711)
01-30-2009 3:12 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by Peg
01-29-2009 6:32 AM


Re: This humble carpenter wasn't exactly what the Jews wanted.
Gday,
Peg writes:
you think any ruler would have such an event recorded?
i cant imagine any ruler in their right mind would make a written record of such an event
[the slaughter of the innocent babies by Herod].
Peg -
others write about rulers,
others DID write about THIS ruler,
including criticisms of all the nasty things he did.
There is NO mention of this event in history, and there WOULD be. That is why historians agree it never happened.
Kapyong

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Peg, posted 01-29-2009 6:32 AM Peg has not replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 218 of 306 (496722)
01-30-2009 5:53 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by Peg
01-29-2009 6:32 AM


Herod and Josephus
you think any ruler would have such an event recorded?
Josephus had plenty to say about Herod. Not all of it positive.
quote:
For these reasons Mariamne reproached Herod, and his sister and mother, after a most contumelious manner, while he was dumb on account of his affection for her; yet had the women great indignation at her, and raised a calumny against her, that she was false to his bed; which thing they thought most likely to move Herod to anger. They also contrived to have many other circumstances believed, in order to make the thing more credible, and accused her of having sent her picture into Egypt to Antony, and that her lust was so extravagant, as to have thus showed herself, though she was absent, to a man that ran mad after women, and to a man that had it in his power to use violence to her. This charge fell like a thunderbolt upon Herod, and put him into disorder...
...His passion also made him stark mad, and leaping out of his bed, he ran about the palace after a wild manner; at which time his sister Salome took the opportunity also to blast her reputation, and confirmed his suspicion about Joseph; whereupon, out of his ungovernable jealousy and rage, he commanded both of them to be slain immediately; but as soon as ever his passion was over, he repented of what he had done, and as soon as his anger was worn off, his affections were kindled again. And indeed the flame of his desires for her was so ardent, that he could not think she was dead, but would appear, under his disorders, to speak to her as if she were still alive, till he were better instructed by time, when his grief and trouble, now she was dead, appeared as great as his affection had been for her while she was living.
and
quote:
These confessions did so terrify Herod, that he durst not immediately publish them; but he sent spies abroad privately, by night and by day, who should make a close inquiry after all that was done and said; and when any were but suspected [of treason], he put them to death, insomuch that the palace was full of horribly unjust proceedings; for every body forged calumnies, as they were themselves in a state of enmity or hatred against others; and many there were who abused the king's bloody passion to the disadvantage of those with whom they had quarrels, and lies were easily believed, and punishments were inflicted sooner than the calumnies were forged. He who had just then been accusing another was accused himself, and was led away to execution together with him whom he had convicted; for the danger the king was in of his life made examinations be very short. He also proceeded to such a degree of bitterness, that he could not look on any of those that were not accused with a pleasant countenance, but was in the most barbarous disposition towards his own friends
I see no reason that Josephus would skip past the massacre of the innocents in his discussion on Herod's life and times.
Maybe you could think of some?
1. He hadn't heard of it. Sounds unlikely.
2. He decided not to record it because it looked bad for Herod. Unlikely.
3. He decided that the story was unreliable hearsay so didn't record it. Possbile.
4. He had never heard it. Strong possibility.
Any others?
4B Maybe Matthew created the story so as to draw a paralell between Jesus and Moses.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Peg, posted 01-29-2009 6:32 AM Peg has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 219 of 306 (496726)
01-30-2009 6:57 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by Huntard
01-29-2009 8:03 AM


Re: The Ever-Shifting Goalposts of Biblical Validity
huntard writes:
There's a very simple reason for this, Peg. The gospels were written AFTER the supposed eyewitnesses were all dead. So even if they saw something completely different, they wouldn't be able to refute any of it, they weren't alive anymore to do so.
if you dont mind me asking, what is the reasoning behind this? Is this based on the age of the manuscripts we have currently, or on some other method?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Huntard, posted 01-29-2009 8:03 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Huntard, posted 01-30-2009 7:18 AM Peg has replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2296 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 220 of 306 (496728)
01-30-2009 7:18 AM
Reply to: Message 219 by Peg
01-30-2009 6:57 AM


Re: The Ever-Shifting Goalposts of Biblical Validity
Peg writes:
if you dont mind me asking, what is the reasoning behind this? Is this based on the age of the manuscripts we have currently, or on some other method?
It is based on the opinions of scholars who say that the earliest mark could've been written was post 70 AD. Mark is the first gospel, so all the others came after it. The chance the apostles were still alive at that time is very very small, if not impossible for that time period.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Peg, posted 01-30-2009 6:57 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Peg, posted 01-31-2009 6:19 AM Huntard has replied

Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3443 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 221 of 306 (496789)
01-30-2009 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by Peg
01-29-2009 6:22 AM


Re: The Ever-Shifting Goalposts of Biblical Validity
Gday,
Peg writes:
you do realise that if anything that was writen in the gospels was infactual, the followers of christ...who were eyewitnesses to many of jesus miracles... would be able to refute it
Peg -
modern NT scholars agree - there is NO evidence of any eye-witnesses to Jesus or the Gospels events. Not one single book of the NT was written by anyone who met Jesus - such is the consensus of scholars today. (As far as I can tell Peg, this is completely new information that you have never heard before.)
All we have is late, anonymous, contradictory books of unknown origin which later people came to believe. But there is no actual historical evidence at all for any of the events or people in the Gospels.
Ancient times are FULL of legends and myths that were never debunked because no-one did ANY debunking back then - they believed all sorts of nonsense (such as thinking Paul was a God because he survived snake bite.)
Peg -
Did the followers of Hercules debunk the legends about him?
No.
So according to your argument, Hercules' miracles REALLY happened.
Did the followers of Mohamed debunk the legends about him?
No.
So according to your argument, the miracles REALLY happened - i.e. according to your argument, the moon DID split in two, Mohamed DID fly to Jerusalem on a magical man-animal.
Kapyong

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Peg, posted 01-29-2009 6:22 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by Peg, posted 01-31-2009 6:26 AM Kapyong has replied

Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3443 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 222 of 306 (496790)
01-30-2009 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Peg
01-29-2009 6:52 AM


Re: This humble carpenter wasn't exactly what the Jews wanted.
Peg,
Peg writes:
Justin Martyr - a Gentile, born about 110 C.E. in Samaria in the city of Flavia Neapolis, the modern Nablus. He called himself a Samaritan and was a diligent student of philosophy. Unsatisfied in his search among the Stoics, Peripatetics, and Pythagoreans, he pursued the ideas of Plato.
(Peg, you keep giving the BIRTH date, instead of when he WROTE - why? Justin wrote in the 150s - well over a century after the alleged events.)
You cited Justin Martyr as testifying to the authorship of the Gospels - but you seem completely unaware that Justin did not give a SINGLE name of an evangelist ! So do you really still claim that Justin Martyr names the Gospels writers? If so, please quote were Justin does so.
You cited Christian believers who preached their beliefs long after the alleged events - but you seem to think they are "historians" whose claims must all be true. Why?
What about Muslim believers who later wrote their beliefs about Mohamed?
Do you call them "historians"?
Kapyong

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Peg, posted 01-29-2009 6:52 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by Peg, posted 01-31-2009 6:43 AM Kapyong has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 223 of 306 (496857)
01-31-2009 6:19 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by Huntard
01-30-2009 7:18 AM


Re: The Ever-Shifting Goalposts of Biblical Validity
Huntard writes:
It is based on the opinions of scholars
based on the opinions of scholars of what time period?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Huntard, posted 01-30-2009 7:18 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by Huntard, posted 01-31-2009 6:31 AM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 224 of 306 (496858)
01-31-2009 6:26 AM
Reply to: Message 221 by Kapyong
01-30-2009 4:38 PM


Re: The Ever-Shifting Goalposts of Biblical Validity
Kapyong writes:
there is NO evidence of any eye-witnesses to Jesus or the Gospels events. Not one single book of the NT was written by anyone who met Jesus - such is the consensus of scholars today.
some scholars of today also claim that Jesus and Mary Magdalene had a sexual relationship and evidence of this is seen in some of the paintings of Leonardo Da Vinchi LOL
The apostle Peter wrote 1st and 2nd Peter. 1Peter opens with a salutation 'Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the temporary residents scattered about...'
so here is just one book that identifies an apostle of Christ as the writer. Can you somehow disprove this?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Kapyong, posted 01-30-2009 4:38 PM Kapyong has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by Kapyong, posted 01-31-2009 4:31 PM Peg has not replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2296 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 225 of 306 (496859)
01-31-2009 6:31 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by Peg
01-31-2009 6:19 AM


Re: The Ever-Shifting Goalposts of Biblical Validity
based on the opinions of scholars of what time period?
I don't see how that is relevant.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Peg, posted 01-31-2009 6:19 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by Peg, posted 01-31-2009 6:46 AM Huntard has replied

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