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Author Topic:   Did any author in the New Testament actually know Jesus?
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 226 of 306 (496860)
01-31-2009 6:43 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by Kapyong
01-30-2009 4:46 PM


Re: This humble carpenter wasn't exactly what the Jews wanted.
im sorry, i just saw in my quote i had his birth year as 110CE... its not, its 37C.E. I have this date in a previous post also, but not sure how i managed to type in 110CE here.
So you obviously didnt look up the age of Josephus... you would have seen my error if you had.
I refered to his birth year because this is only a few years after the death of Jesus. This meant that Josephus was a young man during the founding years of christianity. He did become a Pharisee at age 19, so his schooling started quite young...by age 26 he was being sent as a diplomat to Rome to seek the release of jewish prisoners.
this makes Josephus a contemporary of the early church including the Apostles who were with Jesus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Kapyong, posted 01-30-2009 4:46 PM Kapyong has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by Kapyong, posted 01-31-2009 4:44 PM Peg has not replied
 Message 241 by Modulous, posted 02-01-2009 3:05 AM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 227 of 306 (496861)
01-31-2009 6:46 AM
Reply to: Message 225 by Huntard
01-31-2009 6:31 AM


Re: The Ever-Shifting Goalposts of Biblical Validity
its very relevant
If we are to scrutinize history by the word of scholars, then why must we only accept the word of scholars of our own day and age and not the word of scholars who were actually living during the times we are analyzing?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by Huntard, posted 01-31-2009 6:31 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Huntard, posted 01-31-2009 6:52 AM Peg has replied
 Message 238 by Kapyong, posted 01-31-2009 4:51 PM Peg has not replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 228 of 306 (496862)
01-31-2009 6:52 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by Peg
01-31-2009 6:46 AM


Re: The Ever-Shifting Goalposts of Biblical Validity
Peg writes:
ts very relevant
If we are to scrutinize history by the word of scholars, then why must we only accept the word of scholars of our own day and age and not the word of scholars who were actually living during the times we are analyzing?
We should accept the word of the scholars that have evidence to support their claims. Everything else is irrelevant.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by Peg, posted 01-31-2009 6:46 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by Peg, posted 01-31-2009 6:57 AM Huntard has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 229 of 306 (496863)
01-31-2009 6:57 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by Huntard
01-31-2009 6:52 AM


Re: The Ever-Shifting Goalposts of Biblical Validity
i agree, supporting evidence is a good thing
do you think that ancient historians had no supporting evidence?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Huntard, posted 01-31-2009 6:52 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by Huntard, posted 01-31-2009 7:01 AM Peg has replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 230 of 306 (496864)
01-31-2009 7:01 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by Peg
01-31-2009 6:57 AM


Re: The Ever-Shifting Goalposts of Biblical Validity
i agree, supporting evidence is a good thing
do you think that ancient historians had no supporting evidence?
I haven't seen any of their evidence. Further, they were Christians, bit hard to say the gospel isn't true when you believe it is.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Peg, posted 01-31-2009 6:57 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by Peg, posted 01-31-2009 7:06 AM Huntard has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 231 of 306 (496867)
01-31-2009 7:06 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by Huntard
01-31-2009 7:01 AM


Re: The Ever-Shifting Goalposts of Biblical Validity
what do you think the gospels accounts and the books of the christain scriptures are?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Huntard, posted 01-31-2009 7:01 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by Huntard, posted 01-31-2009 7:20 AM Peg has replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 232 of 306 (496868)
01-31-2009 7:20 AM
Reply to: Message 231 by Peg
01-31-2009 7:06 AM


Re: The Ever-Shifting Goalposts of Biblical Validity
Peg writes:
what do you think the gospels accounts and the books of the christain scriptures are?
The mythification of Jesus. According to the long line of similar mythical figures that came before him.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Peg, posted 01-31-2009 7:06 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by Peg, posted 01-31-2009 7:28 AM Huntard has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 233 of 306 (496869)
01-31-2009 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 232 by Huntard
01-31-2009 7:20 AM


Re: The Ever-Shifting Goalposts of Biblical Validity
one problem with that is that myths go away after time
another problem is that people dont lay their life down for something they know to be a myth
nor do historians testify that a mythical person was a real person
nor do we set our calanders by the supposed date of the birth of a myth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Huntard, posted 01-31-2009 7:20 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by 8upwidit2, posted 01-31-2009 7:41 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 235 by Huntard, posted 01-31-2009 8:13 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 239 by Kapyong, posted 01-31-2009 5:12 PM Peg has not replied
 Message 240 by Granny Magda, posted 01-31-2009 5:13 PM Peg has not replied

8upwidit2
Member (Idle past 4445 days)
Posts: 88
From: Katrinaville USA
Joined: 02-03-2005


Message 234 of 306 (496871)
01-31-2009 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by Peg
01-31-2009 7:28 AM


Re: The Ever-Shifting Goalposts of Biblical Validity
Peg wrote: "one problem with that is that myths go away after time"
Peg, I think this one (Christianity)would have gone the way of earlier supernatural myths had it not been for Constantine making Christianity the official Roman state religion. And the Romans spreading it all around Europe by the sword. Take Constantine out of the formula and Christianity would have been history like the other myths before it.
Peg again wrote: "another problem is that people dont lay their life down for something they know to be a myth."
I agree but there have been gillions who have given their lives for what they THOUGHT were truths but in reality were myths.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Peg, posted 01-31-2009 7:28 AM Peg has not replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 235 of 306 (496875)
01-31-2009 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by Peg
01-31-2009 7:28 AM


Re: The Ever-Shifting Goalposts of Biblical Validity
Peg writes:
one problem with that is that myths go away after time
another problem is that people dont lay their life down for something they know to be a myth
But they didn't know it to be a myth, they thought it actually happened. But believing something happened and it actually having happened are different things altogether. {ABE} As I asked you before: "So when Islamic terrorists believe they get 72 virgins when they fly a plane into a building, that's true?"
nor do historians testify that a mythical person was a real person
Yes they do.
nor do we set our calanders by the supposed date of the birth of a myth
Yes you do. Although the date is off by a few years.
Edited by Huntard, : added {ABE} bit

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Peg, posted 01-31-2009 7:28 AM Peg has not replied

Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3442 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 236 of 306 (496934)
01-31-2009 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by Peg
01-31-2009 6:26 AM


Re: The Ever-Shifting Goalposts of Biblical Validity
Gday Peg,
Thanks for your reply...
Peg writes:
some scholars of today also claim that Jesus and Mary Magdalene had a sexual relationship and evidence of this is seen in some of the paintings of Leonardo Da Vinchi LOL
No mainstream scholar claims this nonsense, merely popular writers. You seem to have trouble identifying actual scholars and historians.
Peg writes:
The apostle Peter wrote 1st and 2nd Peter. 1Peter opens with a salutation 'Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the temporary residents scattered about...' so here is just one book that identifies an apostle of Christ as the writer. Can you somehow disprove this?
Peg -
1 Peter dates to 80-110,
2 Peter dates to 100-160.
Modern scholars agree that neither letter was actually by Peter.
1 Peter
2 Peter
Can YOU produce any EVIDENCE that Peter wrote those letters?
(Not claims and beliefs of other later Christians - but actual historical evidence.)
Kapyong
Edited by Kapyong, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by Peg, posted 01-31-2009 6:26 AM Peg has not replied

Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3442 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 237 of 306 (496940)
01-31-2009 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by Peg
01-31-2009 6:43 AM


Re: This humble carpenter wasn't exactly what the Jews wanted.
Gday,
Peg writes:
im sorry, i just saw in my quote i had his birth year as 110CE... its not, its 37 C.E. I have this date in a previous post also, but not sure how i managed to type in 110CE here. So you obviously didnt look up the age of Josephus... you would have seen my error if you had.
Oh, that's rich !
I have identified numerous errors in your posts and you have ignored it all (e.g. your erroneous claim that Justin Martyr identified the Gospels writers.) Now you jump on my missing a tiny un-important error, while you continue to ignore the serious errors in your claims about Josephus and other issues.
Peg writes:
I refered to his birth year because this is only a few years after the death of Jesus.
Yup -
you distort the data to bring Josephus as close as possible to the time of the alleged Jesus, as if Josephus could absorb history through his skin from birth. In fact, Josephus' comment about Jesus is from over 50 years later, and is clearly not 100% authentic.
Peg writes:
This meant that Josephus was a young man during the founding years of christianity. He did become a Pharisee at age 19, so his schooling started quite young...by age 26 he was being sent as a diplomat to Rome to seek the release of jewish prisoners. this makes Josephus a contemporary of the early church including the Apostles who were with Jesus.
Only IF you assume they existed.
But you have failed to show they did exist at all.
Josephus wrote a great deal - he NEVER mentions meeting any Christians ever. Can you produce any evidence he did?
The passage in Josephus is either tampered with, or totally forged. Did you know that ?
Kapyong

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Peg, posted 01-31-2009 6:43 AM Peg has not replied

Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3442 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 238 of 306 (496945)
01-31-2009 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by Peg
01-31-2009 6:46 AM


Re: The Ever-Shifting Goalposts of Biblical Validity
Gday,
Peg writes:
If we are to scrutinize history by the word of scholars, then why must we only accept the word of scholars of our own day and age
Peg -
you keep calling ancient faithful Christian believers "scholars" and "historians" and believing them over modern informed experts.
Peg writes:
and not the word of scholars who were actually living during the times we are analyzing?
Ok then -
how about these :
Celsus attacked the Gospels as fiction based on myths :
"Clearly the christians have used...myths... in fabricating the story of Jesus' birth...It is clear to me that the writings of the christians are a lie and that your fables are not well-enough constructed to conceal this monstrous fiction"
Porphyry claimed the Gospels were invented :
"... the evangelists were inventors - not historians”
Julian claimed Jesus was spurious, counterfeit, invented :
"why do you worship this spurious son...a counterfeit son", "you have invented your new kind of sacrifice ".
Julian was
"convinced that the fabrication of the Galilaeans is a fiction of men composed by wickedness.."
So,
do you accept the word of those ancient writers, Peg ?
Kapyong

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by Peg, posted 01-31-2009 6:46 AM Peg has not replied

Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3442 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 239 of 306 (496956)
01-31-2009 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by Peg
01-31-2009 7:28 AM


Re: The Ever-Shifting Goalposts of Biblical Validity
Gday,
Peg writes:
another problem is that people dont lay their life down for something they know to be a myth
Firstly - no-one claimed they "laid their life down for something they know to be a myth" at all. That's NOT the claim - people DO often believe things that are not true. The problem here Peg, is that you seem to believe that BELIEFS are the same as facts. Do you accept the faithful beliefs of Muslims in the same way?
Secondly - people DO lay down their lives for false beliefs (suicide bombers, 9/11 terrorists, Heaven's gate cult etc. etc.)
Thirdly - the legends of Christian martyrs are late un-sourced stories, there is no actual early evidence it happened.
Peg writes:
nor do historians testify that a mythical person was a real person
Again, you have confused historians with faithful believers of your religion.
Peg -
do you believe what Muslims say about Mohamed ?
do you believe what Theosophists say about HPB ?
do you believe what Heaven's gate cult said about Applethwaite ?
do you believe Charles Manson's disciples who claim to have personally eye-witnessed him levitating a bus over a stream?
Hmm?
Do you believe those stories, Peg ?
People believe all sorts of claims that are wrong, including believing in myths.
Ancient peoples believed in, and wrote about :
* Zeus etc.
* Hercules
* Bacchus
* Aesculapius
* Apollo
* etc. etc.
Do you believe in all those figures, Peg?
Or do you only believe writers who agree with your faith?
Please answer.
Modern people STILL believe in fictions, myths or legends:
* Adam
* Moses
* Sherlock Holmes
* Perry Mason
* John Frum
* Ned Ludd
* Don Juan (Carlos Castaneda's master)
* the ascended masters
These are fictions which some people believe TODAY.
Does that make them real, Peg?
Hmmm?
Peg writes:
nor do we set our calanders by the supposed date of the birth of a myth
Peg,
our calendar was created several CENTURIES after the alleged time of Christ, and got the date wrong. Do you really believe that is prooof of anything?
Did you know we have MANY different calendars in use in the world ?
Does the Jewish calendar prove the Flood happened?
Does the Zoroastrian calendar proved Zoroaster existed?
Kapyong

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Peg, posted 01-31-2009 7:28 AM Peg has not replied

Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 240 of 306 (496957)
01-31-2009 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by Peg
01-31-2009 7:28 AM


Re: The Ever-Shifting Goalposts of Biblical Validity
Hi Peg,
quote:
one problem with that is that myths go away after time
Really? How much time? By this logic, Shiva must be real as well, since his worship is as least as old as Christ's.
quote:
another problem is that people dont lay their life down for something they know to be a myth
As has been pointed out, just because some people think something is real enough to die for, does not mean that they are correct. By this logic Islam is true, just because there are suicide bombers who think it is.
quote:
nor do historians testify that a mythical person was a real person
Do they not? Are they perfect? Why the faith in some historians when you reject others out of hand? Is it because they are saying what you want to hear?
quote:
nor do we set our calanders by the supposed date of the birth of a myth
Truly ridiculous. The Calendar we use is basically an updated form of the Julian calendar which pre-dates Jesus (the clue is in the name). Further, the practise of using Anno Domini dates back only to the sixth century when it was cooked up by committed Christians. What do you expect a Christian monk to base his system on? The Buddha?
You are clutching at straws.
Mutate and Survive

"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Peg, posted 01-31-2009 7:28 AM Peg has not replied

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