Eternal Life (thanks, but no thanks)

Dear God,
Your followers on Earth have assured me that I will live forever. Sometimes there are conditions placed upon this: including accepting the authority of a certain prophet or following a certain set of commandments. Some of your followers say that I will get eternal life whatever happens, the only difference is where I get to spend that eternal life - in paradise or some kind of torment.I'm not sure who to believe on those accounts but let us assume that whatever the requirements are that by the time my body has died I have fulfilled them. I have a few questions about this immortality, that I think it is vital you answer for me. Failing that, perhaps you can inspire some of your followers who are members here to tell me.Do I get a choice?For reasons I will explain, the concept of eternal life whichever way it is dressed up fills me with either horror or non-caring. If I had a choice I would not accept this offer. Can I not simply request to be sent into the dark absence of oblivion rather than suffering permanent consciousness? It seems highly immoral to force me to do the thing which I would loathe to do.Do I grow?In many versions of immortality my personality remains the same for all eternity. What horror! My goals remain the same? Does that mean they are never fulfilled? Or does it mean I never get any new goals? Do I learn anything? If I do learn, gain new goals and so on and so forth - then I surely am growing. The dilemma is this:If I do grow, then I change. This is good. I like changing - I am a different person now, then when I was six years old and I am different from when I was eighteen. The me aged eighteen can be said to be 'dead' since it doesn't really exist any more. It has been replaced with me aged twenty eight. If I have eternal life and I grow and change, I will be so radically different by the age of five hundred, what difference would it make to my twenty eight year old self if that five hundred year old person exists? *I* don't exist, in that my personality, my beliefs and my goals don't exist any more. So if I do change over time: I don't really care if I have eternal life. It makes no difference since I will eventually no longer exist and a different person will exist.If I don't change - what the heck is the point of having eternal life? An eternity of stasis without learning, without discovery? That is the most hellish concept I can think of. To even spend eternity in a state of bliss and wonder seems to me to be hollow and pointless gratification if I don't learn or change in anyway.So God, can you take your offer of eternal life and stick it somewhere dark and unconscious? Either that or explain to me why I'm wrong.Thanks,
Modulous

Thanks Of course, but I'd shelve that under 'hollow and pointless gratification'. I'd have no choice but to be happy and fulfilled, but if God asked me, aged twenty eight about it I'd turn down the offer. It is certainly no life I'd choose to lead (yes, yes, I didn't have much choice in this one either). Aged sixteen I'd have accepted such an offer in a heartbeat (an eternity of Nirvana - bring it on!). Who knows what I'll think aged twenty-nine? Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

Excellent point. The personality theory of identity does need some grounding. I am not going to follow with an argument against you - but raise a few questions that it might be interesting to explore. It sounds like you are arguing in favour of experiential continuity as a definition of identity (or something akin to it). To provide an analogy courtesy of Shelly Kagan, if we are walking alongside a train, although there maybe many different carriages it remains the same train. What is important is some kind of connection from one carriage to another (this is spacial connection).Kagan continues this analogy by pointing to a car we could point to a brand new car bought in say 1970. It was shiny and new and had lots of horses under its bonnet/hood. Nowadays it sits in a scrap yard, with no wheels and getting the engine to even start would be a miracle. But its the same car, right? It is connected through time with the 1970s new car even though it is very different now.So you're saying, "but my self has this same kind continuance of 'perspective', so its the same thing just a different part (like the train) or occupies a different time (like the car) of the same thing. It is this thing that I am interested in achieving personality".It is a strong argument, and of course, this is a matter of personal preferences.However, imagine in 5,000 years (forget supernatural realms, lets just imagine really good medicine) you were still alive. Only you hated the jews, thought women were stupid, and believed that anybody who discussed the philosophy of self with people from England deserved death. Instead, you loved torture, Jesus^* Mohammed, crack, and flower arranging. Would you regard this, now, as immortality of Bluejay?Well, I find that problematic even though you may not. The question I'd be interested in getting to, if you can disentangle it is, "Who/what is the entity that has this perspective that Bluejay wants to preserve?".If we were to duplicate Bluejay perfectly - which of the two Bluejays has the perspective that present day Bluejay wants to preserve? Both of them? Or, is there anyway for the Bluejay 'perspective' to no longer exist, but for all other elements of Bluejay's personality to continue? Can Bluejay's personality and values change so greatly that the 'perspective' is no longer Bluejay's?An analogous question would be, if over the 40 years of owning the car, every single component had been changed (including the chasis, the engine, etc etc) - is it the same car? Edited by Modulous, : ^*My memory triggered an alarm, isn't Bluejay some variety of Mormon? In that case loving Jesus would not be a big change...

By whose definition of beneficial? My current definition, or a future definition? I'm sure what I would regard as beneficial growth will be different in five hundred years than it is now - at least I'd hope so: that's kind of the dilemma. Then, to be honest, I'm not interested in that kind of infinite life. I would want to be able to look back on myself aged twenty eight and think of myself as an entirely different person with different goals, beliefs, values, agendas, personality. But in so doing, I am stating that I want to rid my current personhood of its immortality.The kind of life of existing largely as I am now, having fun or keeping myself amused/happy whatever seem to me to fall under the 'hollow and pointless gratification' category.Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

Hi ICANT,
I've heard various accounts of what heaven or paradise might be like from a variety of religions. What you describe certainly seems to satisfy or please you, but I can't help but feel that the dilemma I outlined remains unaddressed.You seem to describe an eternal life with no challenges and no learning. I hope you enjoy that should it happen. As I described in the OP, that sounds like a perfect horror and in an effort to avoid that horror, God gives us hollow and pointless gratification.I hope that you were not inspired by God in answer to my letter and that you are simply confused or wrong.Mod

Assuming the universe is as you describe it, if I had been given a choice, knowing fully the universe I would be brought into, I would have asked to be uncreated/not created/not born. Unfortunately I was not given this choice, so I fail to see why I should be forced to stick with the consequences of a decision that was made for me rather than by me. Which is one reason why there are many versions. There are others: like the fact that the Holy Bible is not the only collection of texts that describe an eternal afterlife. From one of the versions described to me, as I said. There are others in which there is no stagnation, but growth. Both of them are undesirable. Do you see a way out of this dilemma? That's why I am asking God, or one of his inspired followers, to explain how an eternal life can be better than a temporal one. "It will be" certainly isn't a good enough answer for me. That certainly would be irrational. However, I do not rely on God to enable me to do these things. I rely on my lungs to draw my next breath, knowing that there will be at least one time (and probably many) when that does not transpire.I have assumed that God will give me eternal life, as per the OP. I am asking him, or an inspired agent of his, to explain why eternal life is something to be desired. I can only assume you are not one of these inspired agents since you did not do this, you just reiterated the promise of eternal life and that it would be awesome or terrible. If God is such a baby/spoiled monarch/ruthless dictator that he demands I bow before him, before he answers my questions with regards to why he should be bowed to, I'm signing up with the resistance. An eternity being gratified pointlessly by such a petulant arsehole sounds horrific.But thanks for trying, I'm assuming you don't see a way out of the dilemma any more than I do, but have simply decided to ignore it because you trust that the architect behind it has got some kind of magic solution to it that does not require logic (ie., God has an irrational solution). If you were inspired by God to say those things - at least I know that he operates in a "don't ask, just kowtow to ME" kind of way. Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

That does seem like a good compromise, though I imagine by that time I would be a radically different person thus falling foul of one of the dilemma's prongs. Another possible solution is reincarnation. Looking back to Bluejay's 'perspective' criteria, even if (or perhaps especially because) we lose all of our memories each time, an eternity of being reborn wouldn't be bad at all.

Precisely my point - it's nonsense, as is suggesting that I be a man and suffer the consequences of my decision even though I did not make any decision. I am not talking about hell or heaven, I'm talking about having eternal life - it is to that this topic is about and according to you I have no choice in that matter. It would be like telling someone to accept the consequences of their decision over which parents they would have). I agree, in your theology I am forced into eternal life with no choice in that matter. Can you explain why eternal life is something to be desired, though? Assume the worst? I proposed a dichotomy and explain why that dichotomy presents a dilemma. I am not assuming the worst at all, I am presenting two mutually exclusive possibilities for how eternal life works, neither of which I want.I am asking God, or one of his followers to explain how it is a false dichotomy - how to escape the dilemma. Then either God doesn't understand the question, or he is an evasive git. Assuming he does understand and he isn't evasive, then you don't understand his answer when you are relaying it to me, or God is not inspiring your answers. I seem to be getting more sensical answers from the Mormon God so far. I am. I don't see how believing that God exists, or in more general terms that eternal life is possible, must therefore mean that I rely upon that God to perform my bodily functions. What makes you ask that? It would probably be interesting to meet God. How so? I'm just asking God or one of his inspired agents to explain to me, in a loving fashion I presume, why my dilemma is not a dilemma. How is asking that question demanding God conform to my will and my demands? If he chooses not to answer that's his choice, I rather suspect he won't answer.Are you suggesting that when one asks for guidance one is demanding God conforms to one's will and demands? Yes that God you describe, the terrible cosmic dictator. That's the one I'm rebelling against - whatever the consequences. Sounds like Hitler in the sky, a veritable Kim Jong-il. That's another topic though. I think I have your answer:Eternal life will be awesome (or terrible), because He says so. If you don't believe Him it'll be terrible, if you do, it'll be awesome. God does not have to answer my puny piddling mortal questions about whether or not I want it - I have no choice so it doesn't matter.Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

Yes - it's as good an escape from the dilemma as can be reasonably formulated, I think. That said, I'm not entirely convinced by it. The ideas that I can grow and change and learn for eternity, but not change so much so as to be significantly different do seem to intuitively clash - that doesn't mean they definitely do.If that is what is offered to me (along with the option to self-terminate), I might be more tempted than I otherwise would be. I am just at a loss as to how it might work. Eternity, I suppose, can do that to our imagination. I concur. Yeah - the permanent record that can be viewed is something I have considered before - but if we are our memories, that eternal being will certainly be very different from me so I'd never really get to enjoy the comparison, would I?One thing stands out: Inspection of promises of eternal life reveal something perhaps less than fantastic as they might seem to us on the face of them. I don't want to die, but the alternative seems worse. That is a dilemma that is forced upon us. Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

What? Are you saying I do get to decide whether I will live for eternity? I thought your position, as you later describe it is that I only get to choose the "flavour of eternal life". Which is it? Very confusing. What does 'eternal death' mean? The way I understand it, it cannot be a terrible existence since it would mean not existing. If living for eternity is the price I have to pay to meet God, I'll skip it. As interesting as it might be, it doesn't overcome the dilemma I set out. I'm not assuming any such thing - I am stating that I see no other possibilities and asking if anyone has any answers. Evidently between you and God, you can't think of any or won't tell me. Fine. That's precisely what I said earlier. Having someone just tell me it will be great doesn't cut the mustard for having me desire it. If that is as good an answer as your God inspires you to give, I still do not desire to live forever (thanks, but no thanks).I was hoping that God could explain, as well as or better than a mortal philosopher, why my dilemma isn't one. "Trust me, it isn't" is to be frank, a pathetic answer. I appreciate its the best that your God has - so my answer to your God remains "Thanks, but no thanks." Forces that God put in place when he created it. I don't hold together my model airplane - I used glue to do that. Since I've not met him, I don't know if it would be interesting. I'm sure the experience would be novel - but would it hold my interest? Probably - but them God might be dreadfully boring for all I know. Well, consider yourself tutored. Right - enquiry is profitless to your deity. I get that.Still, it would be nice if I could spend my mortal life looking forward to eternity rather than dreading it. Your God doesn't do that kind of thing, it's a case of "Shutup and follow my rules that I won't fully explain for reasons that I won't explain so that you will be rewarded in ways I won't explain." Well of course he doesn't. I don't have to answer your questions, and Hitler didn't have to answer Chamberlain's questions. If your God's answer is just 'shutup and trust me' then our discussion is over. I remain where I was at the start, not looking forward to eternal life.

Fantastic. Then as per the OP - thanks, but no thanks.

True enough but 'everlasting life' would be a misnomer if we take the passage of time, or some spiritual facsimile thereof, out of the picture.What's more, as cavediver would point out - we already have this kind of eternal life.

My parent's created my eternal soul? Yes, hollow and pointless gratification. I'm sure it'd be great for a few dozen years, don't get me wrong. Creating my own universe might keep me entertained for a while too. Making streets out of a soft ugly coloured metal seems a bit daft, though.

It might look great to you, but I would prefer a temporary and painful struggle for survival followed by permanent death than have one of the various eternal lives described by any number of religions. You didn't address the dilemma. I've looked around the sinking ship and all of the lifeboats are equally seaworthy to me, some of them offer an eternity of floating around without learning, struggling, or sense of achievement, some of them offer the slow but complete destruction of who I am.Why should I not just plunge into the icy waters and have done with it?

All your talk about God and the afterlife and having only the choice between two fates is in exactly the same boat as mine: guesswork. As long as we both recognize this we can get to the heart of the issue - is immortality something to be desired and if so, why? Exactly my point. And if God has rendered my interest in what you have called 'evil' then I may well find him boring. It's not just my heart though is it? You mustn't forget the kidneys (Rev 2:23) But I don't even know what I'm supposed to be trusting him to do and why trusting him to do it would be a good thing. For all I can tell I want to trust that he won't do it. Sounds like going to Hollywood. I'll get stripped of everything that makes me human, forced to smile and be happy, and then meet the biggest celebrity ever. Bleurch. Translation: This is an absolutist totalitarian dictatorship with no escape. Your choice is to either accept that, or accept that. You will conform.