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Author Topic:   Did any author in the New Testament actually know Jesus?
Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3442 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 277 of 306 (497340)
02-03-2009 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by jaywill
02-03-2009 12:24 PM


Gday,
Jaywill - you were challenged to provide some information :
So who named the Gospel and what was the date when it was named?
Are you having trouble finding this basic information Jay?
Jawill writes:
Boy am I having trouble. I mean I have to go so far as to get up and walk across the room and look up some information on the Gospel of Matthew.
Then
you crack a joke about how easy it is to find the information.
But then you FAIL AGAIN to provide the information !?
Is this some sort of a joke ?
Jawill writes:
Who named it. I don't know.
So your walk across the room failed utterly?
So you ARE still having trouble answering this basic question.
The first to explicitly name G.Matthew was Irenaeus.
Jawill writes:
Irenaeus (c. 130 - 202 AD) sited it as authentic, meaning he regarded Matthew as the author.
Why do apologists misleadingly give the BIRTH DATE? Irenaeus wrote in the 180s. The very first writer to name the four Gospels - a century and a half after the alleged events.
You note that Irenaeus cited G.Matthew, but cannot seem to admit he was the first to do so by name. Your walk across the room failed in that too.
Jawill writes:
Our record of Matthew having been cited as apostolic liturature between 70 - 130 AD
There is no such record.
No Christian writer refers to G.Matthew by name in this period at all.
80s - Colossians, 1 John, James - NO mention of G.Matthew
90s - Ephesians, 2 Thess., 1 Peter, 1 Clement, Revelation
100s, 110s - Didakhe, Jude, Barnabas
120s - 2,3 John, Apoc.Peter, Secret James, Preach.Peter, Quadratus
130s - 2 Peter, Pastorals, G.Peter, Hermas
There is NOT ONE cite of G.Matthew by any of these writers in the period 70-130 (No, Clement does not cite G.Matthew.)
(Papias does refer to a writing by Matthew, but in Hebrew, not called a Gospel.)
In sum -
the first to cite Matthew as writing our G.Matthew was Irenaeus in the 180s.
Until then it was ANONYMOUS.
Kapyong

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by jaywill, posted 02-03-2009 12:24 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by PaulK, posted 02-03-2009 4:02 PM Kapyong has replied
 Message 286 by jaywill, posted 02-04-2009 7:24 AM Kapyong has replied
 Message 287 by jaywill, posted 02-04-2009 7:27 AM Kapyong has replied

Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3442 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 280 of 306 (497355)
02-03-2009 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by PaulK
02-03-2009 4:02 PM


Gday Paul,
Well, here are the words of Irenaeus :
Matthew also published a gospel in writing among the Hebrews in their own language, while Peter & Paul were preaching the gospel and founding the church in Rome. But after their death, Mark, the disciple & interpreter of Peter, also transmitted to us in writing what Peter used to preach. And Luke, Paul's associate, also set down in a book the gospel that Paul used to preach. Later, John, the Lord's disciple --- the one who lay on his lap --- also set out the gospel while living at Ephesus in Asia Minor. (Against Heresies 3.1.1)
He also specifically refers to G.Matthew :
Those who are called Ebionites agree that the world was made by God; but their opinions with respect to the Lord are similar to those of Cerinthus and Carpocrates. They use the Gospel according to Matthew only, and repudiate the Apostle Paul, maintaining that he was an apostate from the law.
And, he also makes many allusions and specific quotes of G.Matthew.
So in sum - Irenaeus :
* explicitly names 'Matthew' as writing a Gospel,
* explicitly uses the phrase "Gospel according to Matthew"
* frequently quotes and cites G.Matthew
* in his own writing.
But :
* he claims Matthew wrote in Hebrew (our modern G.Matthew was written in Greek.)
I would agree he doesn't actually identify Matthew as a specific person; but it's clear he knew the name Matthew and knew the Gospel of Matthew and that Matthew was the (claimed) author.
The weak point in my argument as Irenaeus being first would be Papias c.130 :
* he does name Matthew as doing writings
* but does not use the word "Gospel"
* but does not give any quotes
* we don't have his actual works (just Eusebius' words about him)
So Papias is not usually considered evidence for our G.Matthew, but Irenaeus is.
Kapyong

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by PaulK, posted 02-03-2009 4:02 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by PaulK, posted 02-04-2009 1:45 AM Kapyong has not replied

Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3442 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 299 of 306 (497544)
02-04-2009 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by jaywill
02-04-2009 7:24 AM


Gday,
jaywill writes:
According to the information I have (yes across the room on the shelf) the Gospel of Matthew was cited in Pseudo Barnabus (c. 70-130).
Oh dear,
another failed walk across the room.
Barnabas does NOT cite the Gospel of Matthew.
It does not even MENTION Matthew, or refer to a written Gospel.
Not once.
Which is why you failed to actually provide a citation.
jaywill writes:
However the column in the chart does say "Citation or allusion".
Oh, so now it's a citation OR AN ALLUSION ?!
Which?
Why don't you QUOTE it ?
Hmmm?
jaywill writes:
Can you provide me with an indication that during those same years the authenticity of Matthew was questioned ? That might help your case some.
There was no authenticity AT ALL until late 2nd century.
The Gospels were originally ANONYMOUS.
Kapyong

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by jaywill, posted 02-04-2009 7:24 AM jaywill has not replied

Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3442 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 300 of 306 (497546)
02-04-2009 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by jaywill
02-04-2009 7:27 AM


Gday,
jaywill writes:
Pseudo Barnabus (c. 70 - 130) makes either a citation or an allusion to the Gospel of Matthew according to my sources.
So you say,
but you fail to provide any cite,
you fail to give your source,
you aren't sure if it's a cite or an allusion.
In fact, it all boils down to this ONE TINY phrase :
"...of whom it is written
many are called but few are chosen"
There is no mention of a Gospel, no mention of Matthew. It is not at all clear where this came from. It MAY have been G.Matthew, or some other document that Christians were passing around.
The Anchor Bible dictionary says :
Although Barnabas 4:14 appears to quote Matt 22:14, it must remain an open question whether the Barnabas circle knew written gospels. Based on Koester's analysis (1957: 125-27, 157), it appears more likely that Barnabas stood in the living oral tradition used by the written gospels. For example, the reference to gall and vinegar in Barnabas 7:3, 5 seems to preserve an early stage of tradition that influenced the formation of the passion narratives in the Gospel of Peter and the synoptic gospels.
Epistle of Barnabas
Kapyong

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by jaywill, posted 02-04-2009 7:27 AM jaywill has not replied

Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3442 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 301 of 306 (497549)
02-04-2009 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by jaywill
02-04-2009 7:41 AM


Re: Extant writings
Gday,
jaywill writes:
Conspiracy theory. If you're paranoid enough you can see a conspiracy everywhere.
No it's not.
Writing a book in someone else's name is one person's actions.
A conspiracy is a group of people agreeing to commit a crime.
Writing a book in someone else's name is NOT a conspiracy at all.
jaywill writes:
The central figure of his writing is a pristine example of honesty and integrity.
Really?
Where is the evidence for that?
jaywill writes:
In fact Jesus in Matthew exemplifies and also teaches the highest human morality on earth. Yet you imagine that to persuade us of this Matthew injects a deceptive tactic.
It WASN'T Matthew!
It was any anonymous writer, LATER named as Matthew.
Anyway -
writing a book in someone else name was very common in those times :
* the Pastorals were forged in Paul's name
* the letters of Peter weren't written by him
* the letters of John were not written by John
* the letter of Jude was not written by him
* numerous Gospels and Apocalypses were forged in that period
* Christian history is full of forgeries such as the Donation of COnstantine, the Apostolic Constitutions, the Decretals, the Clementina, erc. etc.
jaywill writes:
My imagination is also able to surmise various alternative conspiratorial explanations. But I think the simple interpretation is the most likely
NOT ONE SINGLE person here has suggested a conspiracy theory.
Kapyong

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by jaywill, posted 02-04-2009 7:41 AM jaywill has not replied

Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3442 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 302 of 306 (497551)
02-04-2009 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by jaywill
02-04-2009 7:52 AM


Re: Extant writings
Gday,
jaywill writes:
I bet your first questioners of the authenticity of the book of Matthew could not be located until 15 or 16 centries after its writing.
There was NO tradition of authenticity AT ALL for the first century or more, but you never address that jaywill - why?
The Gospel of Matthew STARTED as NOT authentic - NO name, anonymous, unknown origin. No authenticity all. Then, over a CENTURY later, the FIRST claims of authorship by Matthew started. The 'authenticity' was made up long afterwards.
Matthew was INAUTHENTIC to START with - why won't you address that jaywill?
Kapyong

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by jaywill, posted 02-04-2009 7:52 AM jaywill has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 305 by AdminModulous, posted 02-04-2009 4:48 PM Kapyong has not replied
 Message 306 by Nighttrain, posted 02-05-2009 1:27 AM Kapyong has not replied

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